From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRDSnJnwBBoEI1zBEA@googlegroups.com Sat Jun 25 14:08:48 2011 Received: from mail-qy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.216.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Qaa5s-0000s6-N7; Sat, 25 Jun 2011 14:08:48 -0700 Received: by qyk31 with SMTP id 31sf5281132qyk.16 for ; Sat, 25 Jun 2011 14:08:38 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=iNrT8INJ2itbUV2IRS/pUvdQBJlss3BAZrS23WdJs5w=; b=xjl/mFkPy3p5ye0yx+ktbBsBaIVpjEdeHO/uy6Kzhiigne22XxPfPWHilDq6qam7R7 dA+ar/8WCBEisiAkvaSjuekn4hx3A+AWQh8XDVSYYKV2h4Y/hVVkOa6ty38UPVarYgrr kG4XmwYe0yNJfsronj23YvPLIdFQ4iTbzBgYc= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=zVUwHPU3jfDiWn5cUrf+xkaOvDItNz9TrbplSN3Ex+0M4/dMFPV3yEv1TndZvvJHIt ZzQlGktqL6vjMUnNAxM0EiPS+33ngAjlrWTTPhARphippfS8mD1EgtilwP4zgJ1S6Ee0 B7MfRF+j1Htyt+41rA4+/OFkzVu9h9bjOH0gY= Received: by 10.224.197.71 with SMTP id ej7mr600708qab.25.1309036114740; Sat, 25 Jun 2011 14:08:34 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.67.145 with SMTP id r17ls127291qai.5.gmail; Sat, 25 Jun 2011 14:08:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.208.195 with SMTP id gd3mr4566776qab.0.1309036111834; Sat, 25 Jun 2011 14:08:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.208.195 with SMTP id gd3mr4566775qab.0.1309036111822; Sat, 25 Jun 2011 14:08:31 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vw0-f41.google.com (mail-vw0-f41.google.com [209.85.212.41]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id k34si3361642qcj.3.2011.06.25.14.08.30 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 25 Jun 2011 14:08:30 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.41 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.41; Received: by vws4 with SMTP id 4so2842860vws.28 for ; Sat, 25 Jun 2011 14:08:30 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.99.10 with SMTP id em10mr6209686vdb.257.1309036110245; Sat, 25 Jun 2011 14:08:30 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.107.6 with HTTP; Sat, 25 Jun 2011 14:08:30 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <593434.20725.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <593434.20725.qm@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 18:08:30 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] non-ka properties From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.41 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Jun 25, 2011 at 3:10 PM, John E Clifford wro= te: > {kau} is an indirect question marker, according to CLL. =A0It is hard to = see how > that can expand out from there to anything else (though it may easily be > expanded to contexts other than {lo du'u), other sorts of abstractions, i= n > comparable senses: I know what fits in here, and the like. =A0But what ca= n it > possibly mean in a main clause? "I know what fits in here" is not a good description of "kau". "kau" is not related to the speaker's knowledge. The idea that it is comes probably from the common indirect question examples like "mi djuno lo du'u ... kau ...". But in such examples the "I know" part comes strictly from "mi djuno", "kau" only contributes the "what fits in here" part. Any indirect question that does not involve "mi djuno" shows that "kau" has nothing to do with the speaker's knowledge: la djan djuno lo du'u lo ma kau nenri lo tanxe .i mi na go'i "John knows what's inside the box. I don't." mi ba troci lo nu smadi lo du'u ma kau nenri lo tanxe "I will try to guess what's inside the box." In those examples "I know what fits in here" makes no sense, it's just "what fits in here". In a main clause, "kau" creates a tautology. Tautologies are not very informative things to say, they don't communicate anything. Since they are true by definition, they don't really say anything about the world, but they can be colourful: - do klama ma - ma kau "Where are you going?" "Wherever." Of course that's necessarily true, but not very informative. That's how I interpret "kau" in any case, "the value that makes the bridi true". There are open problems with that definition: What happens when no value makes the bridi true? (My tentative answer at this point is that this violates a presupposition, but I took a different position in the past.) What happens when more than one value make the bridi true? (My tentative answer here is that then makau refers to all the values.) And then there is the issue of scope, which is a frequent problem in Lojban. I think "kau" should be within the scope of preceding operators and have scope over what follows, as usual, but I may not have always been fully consistent with that in my own usage. . > The nearest thing I've seen to making functions out of predicates seems t= o be > {na'u}, which makes an operator (close to a function apparently) out of a > selbri. =A0I suppose this would require some specification somewhere of d= omain and > range at the introduction, but (in spite of not being mekso) {na'u cmene = ce'u} > seems to work in theory. But making a function (or an operator) out of a selbri is not what Felipe wants. He wants to be able to refer to a function, not make one. "na'u cmene ce'u" is not grammatical, you would need to convert "ce'u" into an operand, and you can do that with "mo'e". But the problem of "na'u cmene mo'e ce'u" is exactly the same one of "lo cmene be ce'u". If "na'u cmene mo'e mi" is the value that the operator "na'u cmene" assigns to the operand "mo'e mi", then you are using the the form usually used for the values to refer to the function itself, simply by filling the argument place with "mo'e ce'u". If that's what "ce'u" will do in MEX, there's no reason for it not to do it also outside of MEX. Of course mathematical notation does that all the time, using f for the function and f(x) for the value of the function at x, but Lojban tends to (or attempts to) be more punctilious than that. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.