From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRDRtZ3wBBoEx_JHcA@googlegroups.com Sun Jun 26 09:14:26 2011 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QaryV-0002X5-MX; Sun, 26 Jun 2011 09:14:26 -0700 Received: by gyg4 with SMTP id 4sf5781677gyg.16 for ; Sun, 26 Jun 2011 09:14:13 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf :x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id:message-id:x-ymail-osg :x-mailer:date:from:subject:to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=s5g7701NHDH46scLmJAJgIdyXhfgYdoM6Ju5kQDlwEM=; b=qtPItgIDvlNqzz19Pg8gqGT+UyuECJlBROleGzttkU8ymfAfxDOGR1JdEruUX4a7/5 8WQHFy8ROmtS/nXtx/3fXpoxHwDD37Fz/ppaLhHqgBtYDCviNG5QEJtwJD8/Uw3azjZM 1BsBwtsNaA8klC3sG1HIoKPBPtlthl/Wm/XN8= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id :message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:date:from:subject:to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=QrxDNAybJKyEUUcUjJXhaTNxlT50WOGY8tjPESFusuLhtbD6T8+Smtb8/G2xKxUOVR usrTa+/9d3bcC6i1V1q1t1lSOxZwPn8tfglpoALO8fbBdiIUMSmTHSr4tgyAbIokWIC/ 7FiLLEQ3y/GX5MPxZ5mpSpYvdgVnModwsjsps= Received: by 10.91.182.3 with SMTP id j3mr524095agp.21.1309104849669; Sun, 26 Jun 2011 09:14:09 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.101.212.20 with SMTP id o20ls1057590anq.3.gmail; Sun, 26 Jun 2011 09:14:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.97.12 with SMTP id z12mr2417352anl.15.1309104847714; Sun, 26 Jun 2011 09:14:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.97.12 with SMTP id z12mr2417351anl.15.1309104847689; Sun, 26 Jun 2011 09:14:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm20.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm20.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com [66.94.237.221]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id s16si4704342anj.1.2011.06.26.09.14.06; Sun, 26 Jun 2011 09:14:06 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.221 as permitted sender) client-ip=66.94.237.221; Received: from [66.94.237.197] by nm20.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 26 Jun 2011 16:14:06 -0000 Received: from [66.94.237.111] by tm8.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 26 Jun 2011 16:14:06 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1016.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 26 Jun 2011 16:14:06 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 250905.74214.bm@omp1016.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 91732 invoked by uid 60001); 26 Jun 2011 16:14:06 -0000 Message-ID: <153443.90666.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: 8cZPRM0VM1kP4ViJYt_ibbtozThpqz0U4Dohx14GVGXl898 ZhdUHTI8p87f0zWzoka3tSZj0079gzNtuXC4CSPXyqM8pXGLLnrW6v6JrvUc G5_bBs4mhGGoPXQnLzSzPVKMWDUeVc3430aO4J1fTSPVz5fBDN4A_W0NEXMy _ib2LLJkTwnV6B4NScB6V7ZlfIXP1V3lWG_hts1Rfnyw9MHdJ.bv0lmVnWgu mbdXnXpag4XiLB6xcx8VN1pMgS8VZG.NGaR.FJpl4vBJKpL.Kz_d5fvUDU2W xtQOFbezIoop2ldIFABkV9UPmrR3QOHcHEHqd2_pn4jDzP6msGVMymJknMi1 Th2sILmxmqx_GO3QVC0WfoWfzj.KWJZI.u4VvFSCUgxTHWbOpDXoBY.GHygG e21R9B4aLDoT2wPC1ENHqOBXcOaCq.gjVAeyQ9jgiZ2xrPM6pXpeCsvOdX64 ldneAec4AeoHBV9zuBes1HQ4mud7_Na.fqZNbqnwvXQ-- Received: from [99.92.108.41] by web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 26 Jun 2011 09:14:05 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/572 YahooMailWebService/0.8.111.304355 Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2011 09:14:05 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] non-ka properties To: lojban@googlegroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.221 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable {kau} began life as a meaningless marker to distinguish between two meaning= s of=20 things like=20 ko'a cusku le du'u ma mrogau: He said who the murderer was. and Who did he say the murderer was? (I think they got the usage exactly backward: that the {ma} is in the=20 subordinate clause is obvious; that it functions outside that clause is use= ful=20 additional information -- and not just for questions, since we sometimes wa= nt to=20 raise expressions out of subordinate clauses, but cannot in general do so). There was also the enduring question of what an indirect question rally was= =20 which was here solved by just noting that it was an indirect question, to b= e=20 treated however that finally would be. As such, it can occur just about anywhere that a proposition can occur,=20 basically the array of psychological verbs (I don't think anybody thinks it= just=20 goes with {djuno}, though that is the stock example). But not elsewhere, s= ince=20 its "meaning" is completely tied up with indirect questions. If, perhaps, = you=20 have a theory about what indirect questions are, it may be that you can com= e to=20 attach some meaning to {kau} that plays a role in this interpretation, but = I=20 don't know of any such interpretation nor what that interpretation might be= (the=20 most likely seems to me to be that {kau} is a choice function that picks ou= t the=20 right thing from the list of possibilities, but that still doesn't seem to = have=20 any utility outside indirect questions: answering {ma kau} to {ma mrogau} w= ould=20 probably earn you a kick, and deservedly so). ----- Original Message ---- From: Jorge Llamb=EDas To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Sat, June 25, 2011 4:08:30 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] non-ka properties On Sat, Jun 25, 2011 at 3:10 PM, John E Clifford wro= te: > {kau} is an indirect question marker, according to CLL. It is hard to se= e how > that can expand out from there to anything else (though it may easily be > expanded to contexts other than {lo du'u), other sorts of abstractions, i= n > comparable senses: I know what fits in here, and the like. But what can = it > possibly mean in a main clause? "I know what fits in here" is not a good description of "kau". "kau" is not related to the speaker's knowledge. The idea that it is comes probably from the common indirect question examples like "mi djuno lo du'u ... kau ...". But in such examples the "I know" part comes strictly from "mi djuno", "kau" only contributes the "what fits in here" part. Any indirect question that does not involve "mi djuno" shows that "kau" has nothing to do with the speaker's knowledge: la djan djuno lo du'u lo ma kau nenri lo tanxe .i mi na go'i "John knows what's inside the box. I don't." mi ba troci lo nu smadi lo du'u ma kau nenri lo tanxe "I will try to guess what's inside the box." In those examples "I know what fits in here" makes no sense, it's just "what fits in here". In a main clause, "kau" creates a tautology. Tautologies are not very informative things to say, they don't communicate anything. Since they are true by definition, they don't really say anything about the world, but they can be colourful: - do klama ma - ma kau "Where are you going?" "Wherever." Of course that's necessarily true, but not very informative. That's how I interpret "kau" in any case, "the value that makes the bridi true". There are open problems with that definition: What happens when no value makes the bridi true? (My tentative answer at this point is that this violates a presupposition, but I took a different position in the past.) What happens when more than one value make the bridi true? (My tentative answer here is that then makau refers to all the values.) And then there is the issue of scope, which is a frequent problem in Lojban. I think "kau" should be within the scope of preceding operators and have scope over what follows, as usual, but I may not have always been fully consistent with that in my own usage. . > The nearest thing I've seen to making functions out of predicates seems t= o be > {na'u}, which makes an operator (close to a function apparently) out of a > selbri. I suppose this would require some specification somewhere of dom= ain=20 >and > range at the introduction, but (in spite of not being mekso) {na'u cmene = ce'u} > seems to work in theory. But making a function (or an operator) out of a selbri is not what Felipe wants. He wants to be able to refer to a function, not make one. "na'u cmene ce'u" is not grammatical, you would need to convert "ce'u" into an operand, and you can do that with "mo'e". But the problem of "na'u cmene mo'e ce'u" is exactly the same one of "lo cmene be ce'u". If "na'u cmene mo'e mi" is the value that the operator "na'u cmene" assigns to the operand "mo'e mi", then you are using the the form usually used for the values to refer to the function itself, simply by filling the argument place with "mo'e ce'u". If that's what "ce'u" will do in MEX, there's no reason for it not to do it also outside of MEX. Of course mathematical notation does that all the time, using f for the function and f(x) for the value of the function at x, but Lojban tends to (or attempts to) be more punctilious than that. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at=20 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.