From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRDm453wBBoEp-Fg3Q@googlegroups.com Sun Jun 26 10:52:55 2011 Received: from mail-yi0-f61.google.com ([209.85.218.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QatVp-0004HL-6u; Sun, 26 Jun 2011 10:52:54 -0700 Received: by yie12 with SMTP id 12sf5878043yie.16 for ; Sun, 26 Jun 2011 10:52:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf :x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id:message-id:x-ymail-osg :x-mailer:date:from:subject:to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=x8pcBM8MxDl67WEHQxxG/N29pNrPVYsYlBzcIr1hUrQ=; b=62VI0iIhFFkoHL4eUAAuq7D6RthJC6p8xLRxnzxNhWHT+9V8WtUPca+BfHI6P+JkGd Nzh/BqkHwZhVlmIm9jMrOGNFKDtR/oZdzOqGeoBLS5QPVAeBjQvMeumcuh+ycdtPiQwf wLSvJqoIpNLSKAi9Dyvu51xGnfXtbVDX6xogI= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id :message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:date:from:subject:to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=17EFOAODoSTGgxwj76XwCqAFaqJflGMUfz8FqbuVXBTZiABGnYR39NKa6NwJWsk8Mz Hk7f/uQgk35axggGcyHczU9ThgAj7u6b8LFi7HpXUblJJCOMegx3WUFmJpMS66jMtsS1 uAFfFS5XibUFWXSstEfT0A1ZL2FAm1PtGR1aM= Received: by 10.146.173.3 with SMTP id v3mr373621yae.10.1309110758694; Sun, 26 Jun 2011 10:52:38 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.101.207.27 with SMTP id j27ls1068886anq.0.gmail; Sun, 26 Jun 2011 10:52:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.207.33 with SMTP id j33mr2475025anq.17.1309110757030; Sun, 26 Jun 2011 10:52:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.207.33 with SMTP id j33mr2475024anq.17.1309110757011; Sun, 26 Jun 2011 10:52:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm14.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm14.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com [66.94.237.215]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id i19si4775646anq.3.2011.06.26.10.52.36; Sun, 26 Jun 2011 10:52:37 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.215 as permitted sender) client-ip=66.94.237.215; Received: from [66.94.237.197] by nm14.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 26 Jun 2011 17:52:36 -0000 Received: from [66.94.237.115] by tm8.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 26 Jun 2011 17:52:36 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1020.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 26 Jun 2011 17:52:36 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 694991.69342.bm@omp1020.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 2748 invoked by uid 60001); 26 Jun 2011 17:52:36 -0000 Message-ID: <500699.51661.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: dc0bpgAVM1m9ViDkoq1mVhCZKDRy9VC6Ip2COXA4Kvozf6m A6FGdwje9StGlFYGm0ZyEcDQAfnS3EvW3Q3_iqayUk1GrzOgqQ7HgxRsBhj_ F7gQQC07AoMrdY26H9AvFrU82YHGhs9ftEccm.MsCRxmwe7ZdYLXVHwd9xUz AOEpCqiZFsBHjsIC.QTqZ8FFEfaNJspL.jweGI8hRm7mTY6_Gquy5FMkkzco udkf8Fh3mcAVeMzZ2SQfAJj8aQdzQXI8avPfCZ0WfNilMll2IVDhJUeHqMD2 zhVrBMgWrP0zsoRBP.w2euDbCx0tzJ3jADKOzi6YRy9RFmIigfIxss_X6kYi 9p7wRl9ASIqu0Ra4YECMU08MzRKdyw_KVuXywDG9Ig8nU5iB7FnCG9UCdoWN CqBI1RUzVwzNggylevgl8Cmy5u2d4jZp4bpUUemaE5O6TQpJdlEj_PimZ9Nj BTJKDGRwxurqkGbX2Fy6jUHU3J.UW7n0ahBtABmIJ.A-- Received: from [99.92.108.41] by web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 26 Jun 2011 10:52:36 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/572 YahooMailWebService/0.8.111.304355 Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2011 10:52:36 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] non-ka properties To: lojban@googlegroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.215 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm still puzzled but at least now maybe I have something to work with that= is a=20 bit more concrete. Let's take=20 ko'a zmadu ko'e lo ka clani =20 (ignoring that {clani} is one of those predicats whose place structure need= s=20 reworking -- the second place is just to distinguish width from height from= =20 length and the third place -- which ought to be second -- ought to be a=20 measurement) x is greater than y in length x is longer than y Now, as far as I understand all this, there arise three questions; Can/should {lo ka clani} be replaced by a function expression, and, if so, = what=20 expression? Can function expressions occur as arguments to {zmadu} etc.? What does a function expression look like anyway To look at the second question first, what would it mean for a function to = be=20 greater than another function? I suppose something like that for their mu= tual=20 domains the value of the first function for an argument from that domain is= =20 always greater than that of the second function for that same argument. Wit= h=20 this understanding we could write that f1 is greater than f2, using functi= on=20 expressions, though the full form is more informative, if longer. Ok, so function expressions can be sumti and so could go in place of the=20 property expression in the third place of {zmadu}. What function would that be? The one that assigns to each thing a length,= =20 presumably (see problems above) something with the same output as (lo ni [c= e'u]=20 clani}, so we could use it as the function (not just the value, since the= =20 argument covaries). Of course, we could skip the roundabout and just say= =20 (longer, alas) {lo ni ko'a clani cu zmadu lo ni ko'e clani}. And that does make more sense (as does the "function") since lo ka ko'a cl= ani=20 is not greater (or less) than loka ko'e clani. ----- Original Message ---- From: Felipe Gon=E7alves Assis To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Sat, June 25, 2011 8:41:51 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] non-ka properties 2011/6/25 Jorge Llamb=EDas : > 2011/6/23 Felipe Gon=E7alves Assis : >> >> Could you point me where this general meaning of {kau} is explained? > > I don't think there is any detailed explanation of "kau" anywhere, > largely because we haven't agreed on one. There has been a lot of > discussion about it on this list, if you have the patience to search > the archives. > I have actually been examining them, but there are just so many years of discussion... It was only not clear to me how settled the issue was, but as far as I can see, {kau} is really only documented as part of an indirect question with {du'u}, and the point is what the logic behind an indirect question is. ta'onai Thank you very much for all your careful considerations, xorxes. > (2) do "zmadu" and "jibni" require functions as their third argument. Having clarified the situation, allow me to try to attract you to my point of view. First, a thought experiment. Imagine you were assigned to define the place structure of a gismu based on the idea of "more", or comparatives. How would you define it? (Really, think a bit about that before proceeding) Now, what I believe my approach would be. I would start with "x1 is more than x2..." and think, "we need more places to specify in which sense x1 is more than x2". And in which senses may something be more than other? This is no mystery in logic or math. The general idea of "being more" is the concept of an order relation. My first proposal would possibly be "x1 is greater than x2 under order relation x3", with {zmadu} and {mleca} being the words used to talk generally about order relations. How can we express an order relation? Straightforwardly: {ko'a zmadu ko'e loka ce'u cnita ce'u}. Assuming the place structure of the order relation paralleled that of {mleca}, the above sentence would mean precisely {ko'a se cnita ko'e}. It turns out, though, that there is another relatively simple way, probably much more common, to specify an order relation. Given a general set X, an already ordered set Z, and a map f: X -> Z, there is a unique order relation in X which makes f monotone. This is the order induced in X by Z via f. This is what we mean when we say "Alice is heavier than Bob". We are comparing the folks with the relation induced by the usual real numbers ordering via the weight function. In these cases, it would be much simpler to just make x3 the function. It could be argued that this is a sumti raising over the original definitio= n. This implicit sumti raising could be made standard with no risk of ambiguity. {jibni} is a similar case, requiring a metric to specify the kind of closeness, which on its hand might be specified as induced via a map into a metric space. > As for (2), while it would have been possible to define "zmadu" and > "jibni" that way, they just weren't defined that way as far as I > understand them. Let us look first at the definition. "x1 exceeds/is more than x2 in property/quantity x3 (ka/ni) by amount/exces= s x4" Granted, the line of thought of the gismu finti was not the same as mine. However, you certainly agree that the x3 is meant to specify the kind of more-ness being expressed. If you also think that a {zmadu} necessarily entails some order relation, you should agree that it is the x3 that allows the speaker to specify it. (The x4 is a separate issue, addressed at the end) Now, let us examine current use. In the sentence {ko'a zmadu ko'e loni ce'u clani}, would you describe the x3 as rather (a) a property abstraction in the same sense that {loka ce'u clani} is? (b) a quantity in the same sense as {loni ko'a clani} is? (c) the length function? (d) something else? Option (c) is clearly the answer for me. This means that the idea of a map in this position is not new. Unfortunately, the {ni} approach is limited, besides being a part of the grammar that might not please xorxes: > [...] Personally I > don't like it, because I think something that starts with "lo cmene" > should refer to names, and the function that maps people to names is > not itself a name. zo'o zo'onai I should have mentioned the ni-cehu case in the first message. (About the x4 in {zmadu}: This place appears to imply that our actual {zmadu} reflects the general structure of ordered metric spaces, rather than simple posets. This may be a consequence of the gismu finti having numbers in mind rather than general ordered sets. Anyway, the structure can still be induced via a suitable map. Also, the trivial metric is compatible with any poset.) Let us now proceed to the question of how to represent functions more generally, and in a practical way. > (1) how do we refer to a function in Lojban > You could refer to the function in the longwinded fashion: "lo fancu > be lo prenu bei lo valsi bei lo ka makau cmene ce'u", "the function > from people to words by the rule of what their name is" I would feel relieved if able to use at least that kind of construction, but even the nature of the x4 is unclear to me. I noticed you used the ka-kau, which I still consider messy. {fancu} would be more useful were it defined as, e.g., "[...] defined by expression x4 with free variable x5 (letteral)". What do you think of my using the undefined x5 like that? {fancu fo lu lo cmene be me'o xy. li'u me'o xy.} > but there is no cmavo (say "lo'au") that condenses that into > something like "lo'au cmene be ce'u". > I would suggest using a function cmavo, like "lo'au", for that. Alternatively, the new cmavo could play the role of {ce'u}, and bind to the usual descriptors, instead of abstractions: {lo cmene be ce'au} {loni ce'au clani} You will probably say that the function is not the territory, but unless there is serious consideration for an experimental cmavo, we should not argue about that. As a general note, whatever the means to representing a function may be, it should be relatively easy to specify its defining expression and range. The precise domain is usually unimportant. All in all, I am still convinced that functions are not only important, but also the right thing to fill some places. Nevertheless, I am not sure about how to best express them concisely while still keeping in line with current lojban grammar and usage... mu'o mi'e .asiz. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at=20 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.