From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCL0p7wBBoEHU_ehA@googlegroups.com Sun Jun 26 14:48:13 2011 Received: from mail-yx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.213.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QaxBW-0001Zt-0Z; Sun, 26 Jun 2011 14:48:12 -0700 Received: by yxa15 with SMTP id 15sf5976754yxa.16 for ; Sun, 26 Jun 2011 14:47:59 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf :x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id:message-id:x-ymail-osg :x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to:in-reply-to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=RKQ/efIv55geQbbLlhdRp4qvf/sdLUVcJR4i9R0IeVQ=; b=10rIeoA7S7lFHx8EMXsXtXDMbg68rW2TT35SEiyKOp8chJWzfyq+3lleKG/qh4hmyG NZlMCEXpI2MSCMCTVH/iV7cniQltKXgItQCyPMS7O3h/NaYzKs0Pjz3opVOih7OWTJLr rDT6uClt/6ghrZ7CXRK4qq2ypQDQ1EKaf22xM= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id :message-id:x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references:date:from:subject:to :in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=oF8zf31ETlodhsdY5nbUWrcS2n9vAFDW44aeYhzeMNK6wK2SNkUUAhgU5hVV934aVh kkUZ5E41fC9wzW6tDAonijEB73iiWp/sxV+H0SAHoQ0okGAPUw9jihEc+odOerkHQVE8 c884SsS4D1qPdqpj0LeRbzcmMAnUPjFfQLzcQ= Received: by 10.236.79.7 with SMTP id h7mr284583yhe.8.1309124875565; Sun, 26 Jun 2011 14:47:55 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.151.156.14 with SMTP id i14ls111720ybo.4.gmail; Sun, 26 Jun 2011 14:47:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.180.201 with SMTP id j49mr2574526yhm.46.1309124873964; Sun, 26 Jun 2011 14:47:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.180.201 with SMTP id j49mr2574525yhm.46.1309124873950; Sun, 26 Jun 2011 14:47:53 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm28-vm0.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm28-vm0.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com [66.94.236.229]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id s34si2877658yhh.5.2011.06.26.14.47.53; Sun, 26 Jun 2011 14:47:53 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.236.229 as permitted sender) client-ip=66.94.236.229; Received: from [66.94.237.200] by nm28.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 26 Jun 2011 21:47:53 -0000 Received: from [66.94.237.113] by tm11.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 26 Jun 2011 21:47:53 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1018.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 26 Jun 2011 21:47:53 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 635774.86340.bm@omp1018.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 27713 invoked by uid 60001); 26 Jun 2011 21:47:53 -0000 Message-ID: <450052.81695.qm@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-YMail-OSG: nLcQ4BwVM1m8eEQpjsiNoZWga2GYRwbfYfm2BC_35oClnkq SBQd5wrQElLQ0cZDAV7HDcxGCclWO2OzHXmVDFKRGxu5JzAeqAeLmrFdfVzQ 3qa2TYuluK2vMCE13kVEMz3v94dCwReGwyGpM8EzVeG2WBmpyq5vWt4svZ_5 Tvl0YESu66wFaI3zXHmAS_xmAWUVLJ91PCj8_.r.3sXNRXts8RNMWfEghoXW _jv2VE3qgCz7EOjZ95s0qm4cdHiLPe0v98P0NViFi.oim5nbdswKprUYNFkA KZEaCmNc58g.lX.IRFVDxnvFqIMigb3YMiNUKfMhERDbmmtBcNLHGxeAj4kS pboT3_mU.oWxN4q5_KmLzH2EJZRweB2RO2WVzG.5JE4jvYyskTGQ5GmIEEST 3LQ9rzZRYd0ScrAtk7tTTgav1gSuCATJa3fDQLSRNctwgy5pt_PMzlMb18bp TeryAdyf3bn49Nil9jR8R59k. Received: from [99.92.108.41] by web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sun, 26 Jun 2011 14:47:53 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/572 YahooMailWebService/0.8.111.304355 References: <153443.90666.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sun, 26 Jun 2011 14:47:53 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] non-ka properties To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: <153443.90666.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.236.229 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable xorxes to the rescue as usual (thanks, again) He provides a nice case of an= =20 indirect question which is not in a proposition. Although the Lojban form = is=20 almost as convoluted as the English, it is clearly correct and so {kau} mus= t go=20 to at least {ka} beyond {du'u) and, I assume, will go into any abstraction. The other thing that came up, though I can't find where xorxes mentioned it= , is=20 that {kau}, if a selector is user specific, not necessarily correct. I can= =20 believe who is the murderer (well, it works in Lojban) but I may well be wr= ong:=20 the one I select is not the right one. So, two modifications (so far) in my remarks. ----- Original Message ---- From: John E Clifford To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Sun, June 26, 2011 11:14:05 AM Subject: Re: [lojban] non-ka properties {kau} began life as a meaningless marker to distinguish between two meaning= s of=20 things like=20 ko'a cusku le du'u ma mrogau: He said who the murderer was. and Who did he say the murderer was? (I think they got the usage exactly backward: that the {ma} is in the=20 subordinate clause is obvious; that it functions outside that clause is use= ful=20 additional information -- and not just for questions, since we sometimes wa= nt to=20 raise expressions out of subordinate clauses, but cannot in general do so). There was also the enduring question of what an indirect question rally was= =20 which was here solved by just noting that it was an indirect question, to b= e=20 treated however that finally would be. As such, it can occur just about anywhere that a proposition can occur,=20 basically the array of psychological verbs (I don't think anybody thinks it= just=20 goes with {djuno}, though that is the stock example). But not elsewhere, s= ince=20 its "meaning" is completely tied up with indirect questions. If, perhaps, = you=20 have a theory about what indirect questions are, it may be that you can com= e to=20 attach some meaning to {kau} that plays a role in this interpretation, but = I=20 don't know of any such interpretation nor what that interpretation might be= (the=20 most likely seems to me to be that {kau} is a choice function that picks ou= t the=20 right thing from the list of possibilities, but that still doesn't seem to = have=20 any utility outside indirect questions: answering {ma kau} to {ma mrogau} w= ould=20 probably earn you a kick, and deservedly so). ----- Original Message ---- From: Jorge Llamb=EDas To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Sat, June 25, 2011 4:08:30 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] non-ka properties On Sat, Jun 25, 2011 at 3:10 PM, John E Clifford wro= te: > {kau} is an indirect question marker, according to CLL. It is hard to se= e how > that can expand out from there to anything else (though it may easily be > expanded to contexts other than {lo du'u), other sorts of abstractions, i= n > comparable senses: I know what fits in here, and the like. But what can = it > possibly mean in a main clause? "I know what fits in here" is not a good description of "kau". "kau" is not related to the speaker's knowledge. The idea that it is comes probably from the common indirect question examples like "mi djuno lo du'u ... kau ...". But in such examples the "I know" part comes strictly from "mi djuno", "kau" only contributes the "what fits in here" part. Any indirect question that does not involve "mi djuno" shows that "kau" has nothing to do with the speaker's knowledge: la djan djuno lo du'u lo ma kau nenri lo tanxe .i mi na go'i "John knows what's inside the box. I don't." mi ba troci lo nu smadi lo du'u ma kau nenri lo tanxe "I will try to guess what's inside the box." In those examples "I know what fits in here" makes no sense, it's just "what fits in here". In a main clause, "kau" creates a tautology. Tautologies are not very informative things to say, they don't communicate anything. Since they are true by definition, they don't really say anything about the world, but they can be colourful: - do klama ma - ma kau "Where are you going?" "Wherever." Of course that's necessarily true, but not very informative. That's how I interpret "kau" in any case, "the value that makes the bridi true". There are open problems with that definition: What happens when no value makes the bridi true? (My tentative answer at this point is that this violates a presupposition, but I took a different position in the past.) What happens when more than one value make the bridi true? (My tentative answer here is that then makau refers to all the values.) And then there is the issue of scope, which is a frequent problem in Lojban. I think "kau" should be within the scope of preceding operators and have scope over what follows, as usual, but I may not have always been fully consistent with that in my own usage. . > The nearest thing I've seen to making functions out of predicates seems t= o be > {na'u}, which makes an operator (close to a function apparently) out of a > selbri. I suppose this would require some specification somewhere of dom= ain=20 >and > range at the introduction, but (in spite of not being mekso) {na'u cmene = ce'u} > seems to work in theory. But making a function (or an operator) out of a selbri is not what Felipe wants. He wants to be able to refer to a function, not make one. "na'u cmene ce'u" is not grammatical, you would need to convert "ce'u" into an operand, and you can do that with "mo'e". But the problem of "na'u cmene mo'e ce'u" is exactly the same one of "lo cmene be ce'u". If "na'u cmene mo'e mi" is the value that the operator "na'u cmene" assigns to the operand "mo'e mi", then you are using the the form usually used for the values to refer to the function itself, simply by filling the argument place with "mo'e ce'u". If that's what "ce'u" will do in MEX, there's no reason for it not to do it also outside of MEX. Of course mathematical notation does that all the time, using f for the function and f(x) for the value of the function at x, but Lojban tends to (or attempts to) be more punctilious than that. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at=20 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at=20 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.