From lojban+bncCNuStaWoDxCCpqHwBBoENqQlFw@googlegroups.com Mon Jun 27 02:53:18 2011 Received: from mail-yi0-f61.google.com ([209.85.218.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Qb8VI-0000As-T3; Mon, 27 Jun 2011 02:53:18 -0700 Received: by yie12 with SMTP id 12sf6559188yie.16 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2011 02:53:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:date:from :user-agent:mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=LHF29j/VfwSdzvrYFmP/7lymnOJRHW5EX8KemsOsdRY=; b=jB93HKtNDjb93+7GnYPxEFxIcadVH6HTYcINO373Z/ffeokxytnHGw2T0Dp5xyW269 XaS6dOdlrl7Z0WS04YMq3v1AoFVRxG0vk5rhypE1Ar56jDlg68SEK4oBQmSuPC9jaK6y c+UQTqTgudL+7gAgIm3s8u3CVazN8NGYPbtDs= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:date:from:user-agent :mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=iVe1ztaF34w1I62hT2sFEW1ZEyRUOuz3Q+oqJ6X2wEuKyPqRuWETZd8jMa5JvgsSl5 wK5yc9Sppq6fFajkMKmhoLYmJBUmzKJwnf6KwBc2q86YJfsljhEBiprmq2zWVN6I4Dn8 uWsfyMZ8Kb6/k5yS6itrI4uhHvx6SFQsYuUus= Received: by 10.100.243.20 with SMTP id q20mr512971anh.4.1309168386450; Mon, 27 Jun 2011 02:53:06 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.101.139.29 with SMTP id r29ls455470ann.2.gmail; Mon, 27 Jun 2011 02:53:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.255.16 with SMTP id c16mr1557504ani.22.1309168384153; Mon, 27 Jun 2011 02:53:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.255.16 with SMTP id c16mr1557503ani.22.1309168384135; Mon, 27 Jun 2011 02:53:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-gy0-f178.google.com (mail-gy0-f178.google.com [209.85.160.178]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id v1si5546272anh.2.2011.06.27.02.53.04 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 27 Jun 2011 02:53:04 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.178 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.160.178; Received: by gyf1 with SMTP id 1so3132007gyf.23 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2011 02:53:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.151.148.2 with SMTP id a2mr6340575ybo.392.1309168383913; Mon, 27 Jun 2011 02:53:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.2.15] (87-194-76-177.bethere.co.uk [87.194.76.177]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id o10sm491125ybl.22.2011.06.27.02.53.01 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 27 Jun 2011 02:53:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4E0852FC.9070008@gmail.com> Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 10:53:00 +0100 From: And Rosta User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.18) Gecko/20110616 Thunderbird/3.1.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] non-ka properties References: <153443.90666.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <153443.90666.qm@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> X-Original-Sender: and.rosta@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 209.85.160.178 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=and.rosta@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable John E Clifford, On 26/06/2011 17:14: > {kau} began life as a meaningless marker to distinguish between two meani= ngs of > things like > > ko'a cusku le du'u ma mrogau: > He said who the murderer was. and > Who did he say the murderer was? > > (I think they got the usage exactly backward: that the {ma} is in the > subordinate clause is obvious; that it functions outside that clause is u= seful > additional information -- and not just for questions, since we sometimes = want to > raise expressions out of subordinate clauses, but cannot in general do so= ). Yes. Logically, ma is marked and makau is unmarked, i.e. ma is makau plus s= omething extra. > As such, it can occur just about anywhere that a proposition can occur, > basically the array of psychological verbs (I don't think anybody thinks = it just > goes with {djuno}, though that is the stock example). But not elsewhere,= since > its "meaning" is completely tied up with indirect questions. Not only psych verbs. Also things like "How fat you get depends on how many= cakes you eat", and even "Your zodiacal sign affects your fate" ("What you= r zodiacal sign is affects what your fate is") -- lots of English definite = NPs logically encode what Lojban calls "indirect questions". --And. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.