From lojban+bncCNCCoMTMDhDRtaHwBBoEwKxcJA@googlegroups.com Mon Jun 27 03:26:40 2011 Received: from mail-pv0-f189.google.com ([74.125.83.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Qb91W-00058q-T9; Mon, 27 Jun 2011 03:26:40 -0700 Received: by pvc22 with SMTP id 22sf3162414pvc.16 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2011 03:26:29 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version :in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=2ZFTAUALjevvO71r2qQTS0erCAKR2C+bdB8EtSMyR34=; b=ZVtDwjtvl5Id4DOddb6cRwIlZVLPcQ0hB1QqxmU3f6XFfj912HKldzxNGN1Z98x++R lZZSLZThswECIZMKzmNBWy9hdqptkd8IkSvoIOY5IF1dOxvnH1s3k/kWpBQ/7rj0HRnp WErKNWupEfooTM/bdKswkc+Qu/mtaAJYxHl60= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; b=TJrQkhmfXzWwnUyvMKf+Q0qMwiJe908WZR/xGVZ8fS6R7BI0XsqS1br/5DFVKFwsXI bc7S0V7lexAMwSY6C8F3YcOeucdTIwotyXPo9zvvZA7ATAbglZ583buuLbjkcdCY43Nj L8X3Oqp7nvd3PIItWWYT6BmhJinG3Ui3pm5VQ= Received: by 10.68.4.233 with SMTP id n9mr502557pbn.2.1309170385022; Mon, 27 Jun 2011 03:26:25 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.68.36.67 with SMTP id o3ls1365069pbj.0.gmail; Mon, 27 Jun 2011 03:26:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.22.129 with SMTP id d1mr1189520pbf.96.1309170383435; Mon, 27 Jun 2011 03:26:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.22.129 with SMTP id d1mr1189519pbf.96.1309170383421; Mon, 27 Jun 2011 03:26:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pv0-f182.google.com (mail-pv0-f182.google.com [74.125.83.182]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id v9si4842748pbc.2.2011.06.27.03.26.23 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 27 Jun 2011 03:26:23 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of selckiku@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.182 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.83.182; Received: by mail-pv0-f182.google.com with SMTP id 11so3796901pvg.13 for ; Mon, 27 Jun 2011 03:26:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.142.199.5 with SMTP id w5mr1185073wff.202.1309170383299; Mon, 27 Jun 2011 03:26:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.142.180.6 with HTTP; Mon, 27 Jun 2011 03:25:53 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <5119524.4443.1309123692982.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@vbze22> References: <737600.87227.qm@web81302.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <5119524.4443.1309123692982.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@vbze22> From: Stela Selckiku Date: Mon, 27 Jun 2011 06:25:53 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] How it should have been. And how it could be. To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: selckiku@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of selckiku@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.182 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=selckiku@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Sun, Jun 26, 2011 at 5:28 PM, mohamad na.el (I think) wrote: > That may be, but I think that the problem with Lojban is that it wants to > satisfy everyone. If they focused on a particular use for Lojban while in > development, and built upon that as they gained experience, maybe into > another bigger project, maybe it would have been better. You just can't have > words that tells one meaning each, and expect to have words that equate to > every thing expressible, at least that's what I think. Lojban has been slowly acquiring new domains of competence over the years. At first basically no one spoke fluently in any style on any topic. At that point people wrote dictionary in hand and expected their reader to read the same way. As far as I know the first community to develop conversational fluency in Lojban was on IRC; I'd say the first topic the language successfully embraced there was the conversation itself. Everyone there speaks English as well as Lojban, so occasional Lojban can be used to decorate an English conversation. It starts by taking over greetings and partings; people quickly pick up on saying "coi" and "co'o" to everyone coming and going. There was a lot of silliness in the Lojban at first, because we're silly people but also because we couldn't maintain a conversation on any serious topic. But gradually the Lojbanic parts of the conversations grew, until there were lots of uninterrupted stretches of conversation in Lojban and it started to explore various territories. One terrain Lojban has been expanding into slowly for a while is conversations about Lojban. I think that's a terrific step. We've been figuring out Lojban words and phrases for talking about grammatical categories and types of words and how to say the sorts of things you say talking about each other's language use. At first in IRC Lojban there developed some language for correcting people and commenting on their usage, like "djisku" (and/or "skudji"). Now there's enough words for structures and categories that a lot of the metalojbanic conversation is moving into Lojban, which I've always thought should be a constructive step for the language. Those are clearly baby steps. I've heard proposals that Lojban should be used for like, patent descriptions. Maybe in some future, but certainly not next. Lately Lojban has been expanding into like, children's stories and comics. If Lojban is used for profound serious matters someday it'll be difficult to remember how all that rests upon the strength the language gained playing and frolicking in the fields of jbotcan. But Lojban is meant to satisfy everyone. Eventually. Or at least they could satisfy themselves, if they wanted to. There's a giant ocean of lujvo. Even the three rafsi lujvo, never mind the four rafsi lujvo, is a gigantic space. Whatever meaning you want Lojban to have, you can pick somewhere in that space-- the closest place, even if it's not really that close-- and put your meaning in with everything else. Eventually someone will bother to make words about all sorts of things. That people will forget most of them will only make it more powerful and useful, if anything. You can bring out a word no one knows, but it's not even just randomly invented, you're drawing out a whole piece of history. I'd like to make Lojban better at talking about feelings. There's no way to do it except to dive in and use Lojban to talk about feelings, I think. Language is a magical substance that becomes whatever you use it for. mi'e la stela selckiku mu'o -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.