From lojban+bncCMGclZyxExCw3qvwBBoEEv_otg@googlegroups.com Wed Jun 29 02:24:16 2011 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Qbr0G-0006Rm-0f; Wed, 29 Jun 2011 02:24:15 -0700 Received: by wwf27 with SMTP id 27sf1936807wwf.16 for ; Wed, 29 Jun 2011 02:24:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=/RmeqcHa3uBbDzsfjeyBrJPyMgDjPDFjtRwkSpCW3Gk=; b=WpM5tcBflbbdxYQEN6MHBfyr+pyJoHW3r9xkUZOQTn0QeeizmiHcxb079alGUrkX+y Ooe+EYedIwHEp5Or0xvxSMgP65HnvpVAHWSLr+fO74kNPWRybllQBzyWEBY9poROUfnb Lk962/ko0RfFX9xuLBKfsNTJ4S13xyuGN/Ls0= Received: by 10.216.231.83 with SMTP id k61mr658281weq.18.1309339440506; Wed, 29 Jun 2011 02:24:00 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.14.41.227 with SMTP id h75ls128726eeb.3.gmail; Wed, 29 Jun 2011 02:23:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.14.96.193 with SMTP id r41mr67751eef.47.1309339438575; Wed, 29 Jun 2011 02:23:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.14.96.193 with SMTP id r41mr67749eef.47.1309339438504; Wed, 29 Jun 2011 02:23:58 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vx0-f176.google.com ([209.85.220.176]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id m11si4018133fah.1.2011.06.29.02.23.58 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Wed, 29 Jun 2011 02:23:58 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of escaaape@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.176 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.220.176; Received: by vxd2 with SMTP id 2so1225193vxd.35 for ; Wed, 29 Jun 2011 02:23:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.67.135 with SMTP id n7mr760800vdt.246.1309339436220; Wed, 29 Jun 2011 02:23:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.181.129 with HTTP; Wed, 29 Jun 2011 02:23:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <18295425.2260.1308825326908.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqie9> <0978f791-223c-4a08-9e67-a8cbf303beab@h17g2000yqn.googlegroups.com> Date: Wed, 29 Jun 2011 11:23:56 +0200 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: How it should have been. And how it could be. From: Escape Landsome To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: escaaape@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of escaaape@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.176 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=escaaape@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > There's a much easier alternative: translating quotes. Famous quotes > are an expression-in-context with condensed pragmatics and wisdom. > Working on short axiomatic expressions that best represent the essence > of a book (and possibly the common significances among multiple titles > by different authors) would be a more realistic effort than plodding > through the single book's whole pages that may contain contextually > less significant phrases or rehashes of the same ideas throughout the > discourse the choice of which itself might have been controversial. > (Already jboselkei -- http://www.teddyb.org/jsk/ -- and tatoeba -- > http://tatoeba.org/ -- offer platforms for such short-translation > activities.) I agree with this. > Here are some quotes from Thus spake Zarathustra: > > =A0http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Thus_Spoke_Zarathustra > > How would we fare with this? If we didn't manage to translate these > quotes first, then we shouldn't embark upon any larger undertaking. > > This one is resourceful too: > > =A0http://www.brainyquote.com/ > > Do we even have words for all these topics? "faith", "fitness", > "inspirational", "pet"...? "Aye, here's the rub !" (Yeah, that's the problem !) (Hamlet) If the way to derive new words from old ones or from "semantic roots" is correct, there is no word or idea that cannot be created in a well-formed fashion. The worst thing that can happen is that there be many different new-words to convey "the same meaning". But, even if this is to happen, we have the ability to coin some of these words into "a canonical translation", and thus, we create pragmatic layers of word usage. For instance, let's suppose we need a word for silence, and somebody (A) says silence is "deprivation-of-noise", thus, some lojban word, and someone else (B) says that silence is "permanence-of-steadinesse-and-calm", thus, some other word. Now, we would have to translate some well-known poems in which silence is either the word A or the word B... And our choice, which would be justified for other (e.g. metric, or rhythmic) reasons, would then "establish" a differential usage, A vs. B... And, this would in turn create a rather subtle distinction between the meaning A and the meaning B, based primarily upon the lojbanic meaning, and secondarily (in a less obvious way) based upon the pragmatic contribution of both words A and B in the context of the poems... So, this would not be different from defining logically the two words, but illustrate them with exeamples taken in some poems... > Speaking of topics and "accomodating reality", how about we try > translate most common everyday ontologies such as used by Amazon.com? > An example: > > =A0Home, Garden & Tools > Kitchen & Bath Fixtures > Bathroom Sink Faucets > =A0Clothing & Accessories > Dress > Jersey This seems to be a tremendous task, indeed ! --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.