From lojban+bncCOD218GGEBCKkrrwBBoEAxzlBg@googlegroups.com Fri Jul 01 19:57:28 2011 Received: from mail-gw0-f61.google.com ([74.125.83.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QcqOb-0000il-P8; Fri, 01 Jul 2011 19:57:28 -0700 Received: by gwb11 with SMTP id 11sf3766026gwb.16 for ; Fri, 01 Jul 2011 19:57:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=71P4UF6QmvhGNjrnRzpEDze+oSZQ4nppBrMYo4UxoW4=; b=yppYnkgz3yX8lhsUw8a8km3AUYTJNeO/pdEiU3YAQtoVSTx8nBNeWc0yXvNrjZu0LD VdXiNRENCDrN8RK/u/81pn/QnuV6zFLmRU8nQ91chtkcCnfWIkrccqRAhI+EZxi88hn1 vd1aUH5LUm7+LF7ExiLG234OUaIawRL7Znlaw= Received: by 10.91.42.38 with SMTP id u38mr444107agj.18.1309575435042; Fri, 01 Jul 2011 19:57:15 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.151.156.14 with SMTP id i14ls558108ybo.4.gmail; Fri, 01 Jul 2011 19:57:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.178.1 with SMTP id e1mr542281yhm.177.1309575434398; Fri, 01 Jul 2011 19:57:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.151.135.8 with SMTP id m8msybn; Sat, 25 Jun 2011 11:00:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.134.8 with SMTP id j8mr1750566ict.92.1309024847340; Sat, 25 Jun 2011 11:00:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.134.8 with SMTP id j8mr1750565ict.92.1309024847279; Sat, 25 Jun 2011 11:00:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-iw0-f181.google.com (mail-iw0-f181.google.com [209.85.214.181]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id w7si1516085icv.6.2011.06.25.11.00.47 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 25 Jun 2011 11:00:47 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of xiu.got.this@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.181 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.181; Received: by iwn37 with SMTP id 37so4385693iwn.40 for ; Sat, 25 Jun 2011 11:00:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.5.193 with SMTP id 1mr4147984ibw.28.1309024847129; Sat, 25 Jun 2011 11:00:47 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.173.205 with HTTP; Sat, 25 Jun 2011 11:00:27 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <357954.94542.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <13371065.380.1309019242143.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqlj18> <357954.94542.qm@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: Eli Frey Date: Sat, 25 Jun 2011 11:00:27 -0700 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: How it should have been. And how it could be. To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: xiu.got.this@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of xiu.got.this@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.181 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=xiu.got.this@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable la .esdybyliu'eitc cmene ma On Sat, Jun 25, 2011 at 10:44 AM, John E Clifford wr= ote: > Yes, but ...=C2=A0 To be sure, the only hope of getting money for Lojban = (et seq) > is from computer uses.=C2=A0 But if they want a language to use with comp= uters, > they will build one to fit computers -- without all the frills that human > languages have.=C2=A0 And, for that matter, if you have to learn a new la= nguage > to use a computer, then a computer language is the way to go.=C2=A0 Of co= urse, > some folks still hold out hope for being able to translate natural langua= ges > into computerese, but that is a much longer shot.=C2=A0 So, I don't think= that > LoCCan3 is going anywhere (unless Lojban gets a new Napoleon type, which > leads to a fragmentation again -- which will happen eventually, if the > project lasts long enough). > As a further strike, Lojban is looked upon as a cult language, like Kling= on > and Na'vi (and maybe Dothraki -- the first results aren't in yet) and so = the > people who know it and could teach it are considered flakes -- or worse. > (As a flake, I have to note that the Na'vi clearly have a hierarchy and a > relgion, so they almost inevitably have a high language and a common one. > You can't talk to a chief or a god in the same way you talk to the schlum= p > next door.=C2=A0 As for complex rules, many languages of primitive people= are as > bad as Sanskrit or worse, so that isn't unrealistic.=C2=A0 Na'vi is a sec= ond rate > conlang, but seems to work OK, in context and out.) > Don't get excited about SWH -- every version presented so far has either = had > nothing to do with S and W or was a prima facie crock.=C2=A0 And usually = both. > > > ________________________________ > From: Muhammad Nael > To: lojban@googlegroups.com > Sent: Sat, June 25, 2011 11:27:22 AM > Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: How it should have been. And how it could be. > > Actually, it exists only as a communication medium between humans and AI= =E2=80=99s > so dominant at the time. Despite being an overused idea, its fresh blood > comes from its Arabic-Eastern culture POV that, to my experience, is very > rare in the western -and generally the global- market. > > I=E2=80=99m currently working -if you'd call what I'm work- on (Renodre= =CC=81), a > fictional language another =E2=80=98entity=E2=80=99 uses in the story; it= =E2=80=99s, however, meant > to be a personal language that is subject to normal flaws of natural > languages. Its development didn=E2=80=99t help me in the logical human-AI= language > thing. > > I understand that if a large institution funds such a large project, it w= ill > be greatly skewed in favour of its needs. However, how about seeking fund= ing > from several large institutions, each funds the aspect it needs (a bit > shallow I know), but with general guidelines laid out to prevent any from > gaining advantage over the other, and to make sure it meets its purpose f= or > public usage. > > If you can get academic support in form of linguists and mathematicians, = I > believe that although Lojban needed 25 years of development over Loglan= =E2=80=99s > 30, Loghnat (a name I chose) would roughly take 10 years over Loglan=E2= =80=99s and > Lojban=E2=80=99s 55 with merely academic linguistic and mathematical supp= ort and > very little general public donations. > > Just look at the amount of advertisement and support Na=E2=80=99v=C3=AD g= ets, just > because it was used in James=E2=80=99 Cameron=E2=80=99s gorgeous, shallow= Avatar! How in > life would primitive jungle-dependant life forms have formal and informal > sentences in their language, let alone the tremendous amount of rules in = it, > they haven=E2=80=99t had the time to write all this, have they? > > I=E2=80=99m one of the few who believe in pure-thought theory, although a= ltered to > replace language with visual clues instead of the > undefined-pure-thought-raw-material in which others believed, so I never > really had any interest in the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, although I=E2=80= =99m > beginning to change my mind. > > Google is currently funding several linguistic and artistic projects for > Egyptian graduates, maybe you know someone here who might be a possible > candidate to propose this to Google? I know it=E2=80=99s weird from to sa= y this > (living in Egypt and all!) but I=E2=80=99m afraid I don=E2=80=99t know an= y suitable ones > here, I don=E2=80=99t know if you have any in your community however. I= =E2=80=99ll and check > the university but without promises. > > I=E2=80=99ll write the two follow ups later, I need to go. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To view this discussion on the web visit > https://groups.google.com/d/msg/lojban/-/Kv4YNCYroucJ. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.