From lojban+bncCNf8pM-bDBDI2KjvBBoEDK9J4A@googlegroups.com Sat Jun 04 06:00:05 2011 Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QSqSQ-0003O2-TQ; Sat, 04 Jun 2011 06:00:05 -0700 Received: by vws2 with SMTP id 2sf1538936vws.16 for ; Sat, 04 Jun 2011 05:59:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=domainkey-signature:x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender :in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=BKXnBXCQ8QaYmKoH3iG/sjZIxmiKm1oUxCRYEPOIOp4=; b=6aNbhnjGVNCPWUHPclA+9RoU8pfZZFXUd2dmOBGJMTS3dq37koVDrP+y/5jImH4lYU IC57Ua1M6yH51jdZ10P66ppNzWZ74eVl2jr8aYrflFv5a8Vw5lSv8WrvQJSF0l75Cnou Xey8hyJSPzxooBfnSfqsMrT6w9tZoVTj4zPR0= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; b=HGgZy9PqeyExxO/ekzXNMnr6wugfxr0pMjkO6FRzVgliFA0ZMAnh15wKd/ic8PISuG kxBfkHWPVyKXDby1SswzI+J2vhe/sFbhQljjCswCk7ikqDEZhjDMmLF8vlLKKK9SNWaf rNxRp/4CVIQWJtFX7jORCpfJsflpnQgASUpeo= Received: by 10.220.189.136 with SMTP id de8mr379078vcb.0.1307192392882; Sat, 04 Jun 2011 05:59:52 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.52.76.10 with SMTP id g10ls1389209vdw.3.gmail; Sat, 04 Jun 2011 05:59:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.175.98 with SMTP id bz2mr928171vdc.19.1307192391909; Sat, 04 Jun 2011 05:59:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.175.98 with SMTP id bz2mr928170vdc.19.1307192391898; Sat, 04 Jun 2011 05:59:51 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f172.google.com (mail-qy0-f172.google.com [209.85.216.172]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ch6si2141921vdb.2.2011.06.04.05.59.51 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 04 Jun 2011 05:59:51 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.172 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.172; Received: by mail-qy0-f172.google.com with SMTP id 29so169443qyk.3 for ; Sat, 04 Jun 2011 05:59:51 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.61.7 with SMTP id r7mr2276032qch.20.1307192391639; Sat, 04 Jun 2011 05:59:51 -0700 (PDT) Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.29.74 with HTTP; Sat, 4 Jun 2011 05:59:51 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Sat, 4 Jun 2011 13:59:51 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Phonology of L vs R (probleme with japanese speakers ?) From: tijlan To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: paskios@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.172 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=paskios@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 28 May 2011 13:52, Escape Landsome wrote: > As you may now, Japanese speakers do not make distinction between the > [r] and the [l] sounds. =C2=A0For them, they are quite the same thing, > indeed, phonologically speaking, they are the same phoneme (in the > japanese language system). Phonemically identical, but phonotactically different. In "=E8=AB=96=E7=90= =86 / =E3=82=8D=E3=82=93=E3=82=8A" /ronri/ ("logic"), the second /ri/ seems generally closer to [li] regardless of the first one. In fact, the original Chinese sound for "=E7=90=86" consists of /l/ [l] rather than /r/ [=C9=BB] (so does "=E8=AB= =96"). As an onset, "=E7=90=86" may be either [li] or [=C9=BEi], as in "=E7=90=86=E7=94= =B1 / =E3=82=8A=E3=82=86=E3=81=86" /riyuu/ ("reason"). So, the language may have both [l] and [r] in oral environments. But the difference has no use in word recognition. Korean, very similarly, doesn't phonemically distinguish between the two sounds: "=E1=84=85" for [=C9=BE] and [l] (+ even [n]). There is also so= me controversy about Chinese /r/, which is somewhere between [=C9=BB] and [=CA= =90]. > So, does it happen there are japanese native speakers in > lojbanistan ? =C2=A0How is this particular problem handled ? Although I'm not legally Japanese, I natively speak their language. I'm also the moderator for the unofficial Japanese-based Lojban mailing list with 20+ members: http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-soudan Some of them have been taking the initiative to hold a bi-week workshop on Skype, in which I participate as a commentator. I do notice the fusion of /r/ and /l/ in their pronunciation of Lojban words. And a beginner is likely already familiar with the issue, since it's something they commonly encounter in their compulsory English class between ages 12 to 15. Apparently many of them struggle with it. Google "l =E3=81=A8 r =E8=81=9E=E3=81=8D=E5=88=86=E3=81=91" ("telling l and= r apart"), and you get hundreds of thousands of results. As for me: I had some Western backgrounds (particularly French), so I don't think I've gone through the same problem to the same extent as native Japanese speakers generally do; nonetheless, I understand their perspective and can easily sympathize with them in their effort to deal with the difficulty. "love" is popularly borrowed into Japanese as "=E3=83=A9=E3=83=96", which transliterates as "rabu" and is pronounced as [=C9=BEab=C9=AF] (i.e. 2 cons= onant mismatches, 2 vowel mismatches -- spoken English can be a nightmare for these people). Modern Japanese has no [v] (or it isn't distinguished from [b]) -- another setback they would encounter in Lojban. In Spanish, somewhat similarly, /verbal/ is said to be [ber=CE=B2al], which would be Lojbanized as /berval/, i.e. /v/ for /b/, and /b/ for /v/ ("verba" might be a good test for a native Spanish speaker's familiarity with Lojban). On 2 June 2011 22:29, Zifre wrote: > If a Japanese speaker simply couldn't make the distinction, the only word= s that I can see causing confusion are "lo" and "ro". Also: le / re xlura / xrula (Right on, Pierre) rarbroda / ralbroda / larbroda / lalbroda Someone on the jpn-jbo mailing list recently expressed his concern about mispronouncing "polno" as "porno": http://groups.google.com/group/lojban-soudan/browse_thread/thread/493b1ca9f= c0b5777 Additionally the following may be challenging for them: any word with /lr/ or /rl/ -- e.g. surla, solri any word with /v/ or /vb/ or /bv/ -- e.g. febvi, rivbi any word with /si/ (because /si/ is always pronounced as [=CA=83i] in Jap= anese)* any word with /zi/ and /zu/ (because /zi/ is natively recognized as [=CA=92i] and /zu/ as [d=CD=A1zu]) any word with /ue, ui, uo, uu, ie, ii/ (because these glides aren't phonemic for them) any word with /j/ (because no [=CA=92] or [=CA=90]) any word with /x/ (because no [x]) any word with /y/ (because no phonemic schwa) * Incidentally, they natively pronounce the letter "c" in general as [=CA=83i:], whose consonant coincides with the one of Lojban "c". mu'o mi'e tijlan --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.