From lojban+bncCMHEmaCOBhDikuPwBBoEW-F6bg@googlegroups.com Sat Jul 09 14:34:42 2011 Received: from mail-yi0-f61.google.com ([209.85.218.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QffAb-0007Ph-37; Sat, 09 Jul 2011 14:34:41 -0700 Received: by yie12 with SMTP id 12sf3007617yie.16 for ; Sat, 09 Jul 2011 14:34:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=e8ybl+XZTG2UwaySqH1YnFFd9bfx54NVru92AybveXU=; b=2ZkJwnmp3Xpd4tGhQ4JDgOpjCINUmXU77R7Pt9ypX8nVcl6nU2WeHcVtEloT6uVz4a 0sI3yqjpyI3L0dkCF+8Bpw1gOYSmJXxFYCKpjnbAYpsQCh8Q0+8mi6yXmcEZhgglm7+8 64tMTNW1EV1lH9G5b+7Cc59vrm1ws5nszSp/w= Received: by 10.150.165.8 with SMTP id n8mr462787ybe.64.1310247266208; Sat, 09 Jul 2011 14:34:26 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.83.11 with SMTP id d11ls2294442ibl.1.gmail; Sat, 09 Jul 2011 14:34:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.154.70 with SMTP id p6mr866916icw.15.1310247265393; Sat, 09 Jul 2011 14:34:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.154.70 with SMTP id p6mr866915icw.15.1310247265371; Sat, 09 Jul 2011 14:34:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-iy0-f175.google.com (mail-iy0-f175.google.com [209.85.210.175]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id hu3si2630692icc.2.2011.07.09.14.34.25 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 09 Jul 2011 14:34:25 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.175 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.210.175; Received: by iym10 with SMTP id 10so2790904iym.6 for ; Sat, 09 Jul 2011 14:34:25 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.5.165 with SMTP id 37mr2997981ibv.144.1310247265166; Sat, 09 Jul 2011 14:34:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.176.11 with HTTP; Sat, 9 Jul 2011 14:34:25 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <201107090028.31171.phma@phma.optus.nu> Date: Sat, 9 Jul 2011 15:34:25 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: xu dai From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.210.175 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015177415eecee5ff04a7a9b6f7 --0015177415eecee5ff04a7a9b6f7 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 The difference is the relationship. In {mi me lo klama be lo zarci}, the relationship is between me, and being-a-goer-to-a-store, whereas in {mi klama lo zarci}, the relationship is between me, and go-to-a-store. mi me lo klama be lo zarci I am amongst-those-that-are something-that-goes-to-a-store mi klama lo zarci I go to-a-store The former states that you a member of a set, the set being things-that-go-to-a-store. The latter states that you are/will be/etc. going to a store. On Sat, Jul 9, 2011 at 3:21 PM, Luke Bergen wrote: > But what's the difference? > > How many times does the CLL give examples like: > > mi bajra = "I run" OR "I am a runner". > > Lojban doesn't have a passive and impassive voice such that one lojban > sentence is intrinsically "I am a goer" while another is "I go". > On Jul 9, 2011 4:56 PM, "Jonathan Jones" wrote: > > I suppose not, however, {mi me lo klama be lo zarci} means "I am > something > > that goes to a store", not "I go to a store", which is what {mi klama lo > > zarci} means. > > > > to pu benji ti fo lo mi me la.android. fonxa toi > > mu'o mi'e.aionys. > > On Jul 9, 2011 2:21 PM, "Luke Bergen" wrote: > >> > >> But is it? > >> > >> In "lo broda be ko'a" we know from broda what "be ko'a" means. Does the > > "broda" of "lo broda" really lose all of it's x2/x3/xn values? > >> > >> On Jul 9, 2011 4:15 PM, "Jonathan Jones" wrote: > >> > No, it means less. > >> > > >> > That's why I used integral/derivative. The integral of the derivative > of > >> > 2x^2+3x+5 is 2x^2+3x+C. some information is lost in the process. > >> > > >> > me lo broda is "x1 is amongst those that are broda in aspect x2", > which > > is > >> > less meaningful. > >> > > >> > On Sat, Jul 9, 2011 at 1:55 PM, Luke Bergen > > wrote: > >> > > >> >> It was an analogy. Don't take it as my cornerstone proof. > >> >> > >> >> If "me" means more than just the counterpart of "lo" then my bad. But > > I've > >> >> always thought of "me" as being as generic as "lo" is. Meh, if "me" > > means > >> >> more than the inverse of "lo" then I guess I've learned something > > today. > >> >> Though I'd like to hear it from vlasisku or one of the jbocrecevni > > first > >> >> On Jul 9, 2011 3:48 PM, "Jonathan Jones" wrote: > >> >> > It's more akin to the integral of the derivative of a function, > than > > it > >> >> is > >> >> > to the negative of the negative of a function. > >> >> > > >> >> > On Sat, Jul 9, 2011 at 1:43 PM, Jonathan Jones > >> >> wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> >> me = "amongst those that are" > >> >> >> lo cadzu = "something that walks" > >> >> >> > >> >> >> mi me lo cadzu = "I am amongst those that are something which > walks" > > = > >> >> "I > >> >> >> am a walker" > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> On Sat, Jul 9, 2011 at 1:39 PM, Luke Bergen < > lukeabergen@gmail.com> > >> >> wrote: > >> >> >> > >> >> >>> Not so sure I agree. "me" takes a sumti and turns it into a > selbri. > >> >> "lo" > >> >> >>> takes a selbri and turns it into a sumti. > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> -(-x) is not "a kind of negative-ish x". It's just positive x. > > Period > >> >> >>> On Jul 9, 2011 3:36 PM, "Jonathan Jones" > wrote: > >> >> >>> > mi cadzu = "I walk" > >> >> >>> > mi me lo cadzu = "I am a walker (pedestrian)" > >> >> >>> > > >> >> >>> > On Sat, Jul 9, 2011 at 1:17 PM, ianek > wrote: > >> >> >>> > > >> >> >>> >> > >> >> >>> >> > >> >> >>> >> On Jul 9, 1:17 pm, tijlan wrote: > >> >> >>> >> > As for "Is it the general feeling that I'm the one who go?", > I > >> >> would > >> >> >>> >> > more consider "ka'u pei mi klama" or precisely "xu kampu fa > lo > > ka > >> >> >>> >> > sidbo fa lo nu mi me lo klama". > >> >> >>> >> > >> >> >>> >> I think i saw a {me lo}! > >> >> >>> >> Yes, I did! I did saw a {me lo}! > >> >> >>> >> > >> >> >>> >> How is {me lo broda} different in meaning from {broda}? (other > > than > >> >> >>> >> {me lo} sort of cuts x2, x3 etc.) > >> >> >>> >> > >> >> >>> >> mu'o mi'e ianek > >> >> >>> >> > >> >> >>> >> -- > >> >> >>> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the > > Google > >> >> >>> Groups > >> >> >>> >> "lojban" group. > >> >> >>> >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > >> >> >>> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> >> >>> >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > >> >> >>> >> For more options, visit this group at > >> >> >>> >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > >> >> >>> >> > >> >> >>> >> > >> >> >>> > > >> >> >>> > > >> >> >>> > -- > >> >> >>> > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > >> >> >>> > > >> >> >>> > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do > > zo'o > >> >> >>> > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > >> >> >>> > > >> >> >>> > -- > >> >> >>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the > > Google > >> >> >>> Groups "lojban" group. > >> >> >>> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > >> >> >>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> >> >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > >> >> >>> > For more options, visit this group at > >> >> >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > >> >> >>> > > >> >> >>> > >> >> >>> -- > >> >> >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the > Google > >> >> Groups > >> >> >>> "lojban" group. > >> >> >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > >> >> >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> >> >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > >> >> >>> For more options, visit this group at > >> >> >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > >> >> >>> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> -- > >> >> >> mu'o mi'e .aionys. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do > zo'o > >> >> >> (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > -- > >> >> > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > >> >> > > >> >> > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do > zo'o > >> >> > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > >> >> > > >> >> > -- > >> >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > Groups > >> >> "lojban" group. > >> >> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > >> >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > >> >> > For more options, visit this group at > >> >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > >> >> > > >> >> > >> >> -- > >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > Groups > >> >> "lojban" group. > >> >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > >> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > >> >> For more options, visit this group at > >> >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > -- > >> > mu'o mi'e .aionys. > >> > > >> > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o > >> > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) > >> > > >> > -- > >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > Groups "lojban" group. > >> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > >> > For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > >> > > >> > >> -- > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > > "lojban" group. > >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > >> For more options, visit this group at > > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0015177415eecee5ff04a7a9b6f7 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable The difference is the relationship. In {mi me lo klama be lo zarci}, the re= lationship is between me, and being-a-goer-to-a-store, whereas in {mi klama= lo zarci}, the relationship is between me, and go-to-a-store.

mi me= lo klama be lo zarci
I am amongst-those-that-are something-that-goes-to-a-store

mi klama = lo zarci
I go to-a-store

The former states that you a member of a= set, the set being things-that-go-to-a-store.

The latter states tha= t you are/will be/etc. going to a store.

On Sat, Jul 9, 2011 at 3:21 PM, Luke Bergen = <lukeabergen@= gmail.com> wrote:

But what's the difference?

How many times does the CLL give ex= amples like:

mi bajra =3D "I run" OR "I am a runner&qu= ot;.

Lojban doesn't have a passive and impassive voice such that = one lojban sentence is intrinsically "I am a goer" while another = is "I go".

On Jul 9, 2011= 4:56 PM, "Jonathan Jones" <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
> I suppose not, however, {mi me lo klama be lo zarci} means "I = am something
> that goes to a store", not "I go to a store", which is = what {mi klama lo
> zarci} means.
>
> to pu benji ti fo = lo mi me la.android. fonxa toi
> mu'o mi'e.aionys.
> On= Jul 9, 2011 2:21 PM, "Luke Bergen" <lukeabergen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> But is it?
>>
>> In "lo broda b= e ko'a" we know from broda what "be ko'a" means. Do= es the
> "broda" of "lo broda" really lose all of= it's x2/x3/xn values?
>>
>> On Jul 9, 2011 4:15 PM, "Jonathan Jones" <= ;eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
>> > No, it means less.
>> >
>&= gt; > That's why I used integral/derivative. The integral of the der= ivative of
>> > 2x^2+3x+5 is 2x^2+3x+C. some information is lost in the proce= ss.
>> >
>> > me lo broda is "x1 is amongst th= ose that are broda in aspect x2", which
> is
>> > le= ss meaningful.
>> >
>> > On Sat, Jul 9, 2011 at 1:55 PM, Luke Bergen = <lukeabergen@= gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> >
>> >> It w= as an analogy. Don't take it as my cornerstone proof.
>> >>
>> >> If "me" means more than ju= st the counterpart of "lo" then my bad. But
> I've
&= gt;> >> always thought of "me" as being as generic as &q= uot;lo" is. Meh, if "me"
> means
>> >> more than the inverse of "lo" the= n I guess I've learned something
> today.
>> >> Th= ough I'd like to hear it from vlasisku or one of the jbocrecevni
> first
>> >> On Jul 9, 2011 3:48 PM, "Jonathan Jone= s" <eyeonus@= gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> > It's more akin to th= e integral of the derivative of a function, than
> it
>> >> is
>> >> > to the negative o= f the negative of a function.
>> >> >
>> >>= ; > On Sat, Jul 9, 2011 at 1:43 PM, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >= ;> me =3D "amongst those that are"
>> >> >&g= t; lo cadzu =3D "something that walks"
>> >> >&= gt;
>> >> >> mi me lo cadzu =3D "I am amongst those that= are something which walks"
> =3D
>> >> "I>> >> >> am a walker"
>> >> >>= ;
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Sat, Jul 9, 201= 1 at 1:39 PM, Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >>> Not so sure I agree. "me" takes a = sumti and turns it into a selbri.
>> >> "lo"
&g= t;> >> >>> takes a selbri and turns it into a sumti.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>> -(-x) is n= ot "a kind of negative-ish x". It's just positive x.
> = Period
>> >> >>> On Jul 9, 2011 3:36 PM, "Jona= than Jones" <eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>> > mi cadzu =3D "I walk"
>= > >> >>> > mi me lo cadzu =3D "I am a walker (ped= estrian)"
>> >> >>> >
>> >> = >>> > On Sat, Jul 9, 2011 at 1:17 PM, ianek <janek37@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> >&= gt;
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>= ;> >> On Jul 9, 1:17 pm, tijlan <jbotij...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>> >> > As for "Is it the general= feeling that I'm the one who go?", I
>> >> would>> >> >>> >> > more consider "ka'u= pei mi klama" or precisely "xu kampu fa lo
> ka
>> >> >>> >> > sidbo fa lo nu mi m= e lo klama".
>> >> >>> >>
>> &g= t;> >>> >> I think i saw a {me lo}!
>> >> = >>> >> Yes, I did! I did saw a {me lo}!
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> &= gt;> How is {me lo broda} different in meaning from {broda}? (other
&= gt; than
>> >> >>> >> {me lo} sort of cuts x2= , x3 etc.)
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> &= gt;> mu'o mi'e ianek
>> >> >>> >><= br>>> >> >>> >> --
>> >> >>= > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the > Google
>> >> >>> Groups
>> >> &= gt;>> >> "lojban" group.
>> >> >>= ;> >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> >> >>> >> To unsubscribe from this group, sen= d email to
>> >> >>> >> lojban+unsubscribe@go= oglegroups.com.
>> >> >>> >> For more options, visit this group = at
>> >> >>> >> http://groups.google.com/gro= up/lojban?hl=3Den.
>> >> >>> >>
>> >> >>> &= gt;>
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>= ;> >
>> >> >>> > --
>> >> &= gt;>> > mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > = .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do
>= zo'o
>> >> >>> > (Come to the Dot Side! Luk= e, I am your father. :D )
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>> > = --
>> >> >>> > You received this message because= you are subscribed to the
> Google
>> >> >>>= Groups "lojban" group.
>> >> >>> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegro= ups.com.
>> >> >>> > To unsubscribe from thi= s group, send email to
>> >> >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
= >> >> >>> > For more options, visit this group at >> >> >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3D= en.
>> >> >>> >
>> >> >>>
&g= t;> >> >>> --
>> >> >>> You recei= ved this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>> >&= gt; Groups
>> >> >>> "lojban" group.
>> >&g= t; >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>= > >> >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> >> >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
= >> >> >>> For more options, visit this group at
>= ;> >> >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den<= /a>.
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>
>> &g= t;> >>
>> >> >>
>> >> >>= --
>> >> >> mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>> &g= t;> >>
>> >> >> .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i d= oi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
>> >> >> (Come to the Dot= Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>> >> >>
>&g= t; >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > = --
>> >> > mu'o mi'e .aionys.
>> >>= ; >
>> >> > .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa b= u .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
>> >> > (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )<= br>>> >> >
>> >> > --
>> >>= > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups
>> >> "lojban" group.
>> >= > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> &= gt;> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> >= > > For more options, visit this group at
>> >> http:= //groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >> --
>= > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the G= oogle
> Groups
>> >> "lojban" group.
>> >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
&g= t;> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>> &= gt;> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> >> For more options, visit this group at
>> >>= ; http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>> >><= br> >> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > mu'= o mi'e .aionys.
>> >
>> > .i.e'ucai ko cmim= a lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o
>> > (C= ome to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D )
>> >
>> > --
>> > You received this messag= e because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "lojban"= ; group.
>> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> lojban+= unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> > For more options, visit = this group at
> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>> >>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you= are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "lojban" group.
>> To post to this group, send emai= l to lojban@go= oglegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email = to
> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit this group at
> http://groups.googl= e.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubsc= ribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com= .
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/= lojban?hl=3Den.
>

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--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

--
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