From lojban+bncCOib25n_BhDi5LzwBBoEgdNLxg@googlegroups.com Sat Jul 02 08:00:05 2011 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Qd1fr-0004DX-CI; Sat, 02 Jul 2011 08:00:05 -0700 Received: by fxd2 with SMTP id 2sf5906670fxd.16 for ; Sat, 02 Jul 2011 07:59:52 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=05K8ph31/r+uRe++mpftJDriQkmzbxUDEK6+1riA9to=; b=mqtAG7651L5QSbVXTwiENlEtiAtB16mYtuN/PngXzegwtkPBdNjwIciYpag0X10PSX 5RKvsiVeNGaC+8uQ7xdpf4Qu9xy0OS8+tehVqY6P5I49KwMWLzvR9YCtDBg+hGr1TFpl F3mJ8C1gCN9/Rg5BOZcuoHHpSAx2rYm7lAApM= Received: by 10.223.69.76 with SMTP id y12mr883754fai.15.1309618786864; Sat, 02 Jul 2011 07:59:46 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.38.88 with SMTP id a24ls2457827bke.1.gmail; Sat, 02 Jul 2011 07:59:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.113.14 with SMTP id y14mr617447bkp.11.1309618785399; Sat, 02 Jul 2011 07:59:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.113.14 with SMTP id y14mr617446bkp.11.1309618785367; Sat, 02 Jul 2011 07:59:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-bw0-f54.google.com (mail-bw0-f54.google.com [209.85.214.54]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id j17si2361741bkt.3.2011.07.02.07.59.45 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 02 Jul 2011 07:59:45 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.54 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.54; Received: by bwa20 with SMTP id 20so4749157bwa.41 for ; Sat, 02 Jul 2011 07:59:45 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.205.82.199 with SMTP id ad7mr3982816bkc.152.1309618785057; Sat, 02 Jul 2011 07:59:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.73.7 with HTTP; Sat, 2 Jul 2011 07:59:45 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1309615887.26603.YahooMailRC@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <20110702023512.GF8547@digitalkingdom.org> <20110702061357.GH8547@digitalkingdom.org> <1309615887.26603.YahooMailRC@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2011 10:59:45 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Is it a lie? From: Alex Rozenshteyn To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: rpglover64@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of rpglover64@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.54 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=rpglover64@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec554db64797da804a717628b --bcaec554db64797da804a717628b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 To me, at least "deception" is intentionally acting in a way that causes the listener to believe something you know not to be true; "lying" is actually saying something you know not to be true (with the intent of deception); "asshole" is a value judgement, not directly related to either of the above. :) Also, weirdly, I refuse to lie, but have no qualms about deception in general. On Sat, Jul 2, 2011 at 10:11 AM, John E Clifford wrote: > But then, you are not a Nazi, It is all relative as to whether telling a > known > untruth or disguising a truth to mislead is counted as a lie (definitely > bad) or > not. > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > From: tijlan > To: lojban@googlegroups.com > Sent: Sat, July 2, 2011 7:20:22 AM > Subject: Re: [lojban] Is it a lie? > > On 2 July 2011 07:13, Robin Lee Powell > wrote: > > I don't see a significant distinction between "you are lying" and > > "you are being a deceptive asshole". > > Schindler lied to the Nazis in order to save innocent people's lives, > and I don't think he was being a deceptive asshole. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- Alex R -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --bcaec554db64797da804a717628b Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To me, at least "deception" is intentionally acting in a way that= causes the listener to believe something you know not to be true; "ly= ing" is actually saying something you know not to be true (with the in= tent of deception); "asshole" is a value judgement, not directly = related to either of the above. :)

Also, weirdly, I refuse to lie, but have no qualms about dec= eption in general.

On Sat, Jul 2, 2011 at= 10:11 AM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
But then, you are not a Nazi, =A0It is all = relative as to whether telling a known
untruth or disguising a truth to mislead is counted as a lie (definitely ba= d) or
not.



----- Original Message ----
From: tijlan <jbotijlan@gmail.com= >
To: lojban@googlegroups.com<= br> Sent: Sat, July 2, 2011 7:20:22 AM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Is it a lie?

On 2 July 2011 07:13, Robin Lee Powell <rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org> wrote:
> I don't see a significant distinction between "you are lying&= quot; and
> "you are being a deceptive asshole".

Schindler lied to the Nazis in order to save innocent people's lives, and I don't think he was being a deceptive asshole.

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=A0=A0 =A0 =A0 =A0 =A0Alex R

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