From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRC__unwBBoE983AHw@googlegroups.com Sun Jul 10 21:42:54 2011 Received: from mail-pv0-f189.google.com ([74.125.83.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Qg8KX-0000jW-Tv; Sun, 10 Jul 2011 21:42:54 -0700 Received: by pvc22 with SMTP id 22sf2111779pvc.16 for ; Sun, 10 Jul 2011 21:42:44 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-yahoo-smtp:x-ymail-osg :x-yahoo-newman-property:references:in-reply-to :x-apple-yahoo-original-message-folder:mime-version:message-id :x-mailer:from:x-apple-yahoo-replied-msgid:subject:date:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=y6fuXABVxfC8ffnM3ylQ+gRmrw83na+mIy+IrHfAcog=; b=XgM1sw8yiFtIlNELo1hqiaj+yRPZJri1GQVezdzLVFUEdSLgeypGWIxcoPoe5QSC7e phdDV9sFgnOMv/LKRAYoBo5Nj7o2QsxM6hdMWaWuE2PDzEYQkw4f7ZP721Ca/jLHGSsm 92522fHFmzSPnCbp447bkn7S4FMrHHhi8OJcU= Received: by 10.142.177.21 with SMTP id z21mr438987wfe.41.1310359359269; Sun, 10 Jul 2011 21:42:39 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.68.39.97 with SMTP id o1ls2793773pbk.2.gmail; Sun, 10 Jul 2011 21:42:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.31.166 with SMTP id b6mr1025705pbi.0.1310359358221; Sun, 10 Jul 2011 21:42:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.31.166 with SMTP id b6mr1025704pbi.0.1310359358210; Sun, 10 Jul 2011 21:42:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp115-mob.biz.mail.gq1.yahoo.com (smtp115-mob.biz.mail.gq1.yahoo.com [98.136.185.206]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id c10si26038977pbn.1.2011.07.10.21.42.38; Sun, 10 Jul 2011 21:42:38 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.136.185.206 as permitted sender) client-ip=98.136.185.206; Received: (qmail 50525 invoked from network); 11 Jul 2011 04:42:37 -0000 Received: from [24.120.147.182] (kali9putra@24.120.147.182 with xymcookie) by smtp115-mob.biz.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Jul 2011 21:42:37 -0700 PDT X-Yahoo-SMTP: xvGyF4GswBCIFKGaxf5wSjlg3RF108g- X-YMail-OSG: UuVs5B8VM1mdjGC0ldmFsw8t_KrQClBXNmsWkuWzKlXPNfa RVvQH5sbBHVyn07yhHI.assBpu5FqNuhWfOG2c7zBTzcpwl10Toax66mtjq6 wgi1kt3V9O4ukcNLprIOt0ss7LvcN2vndh4jayQyv7V48EE9dCN9UxWzVLTN 5o6myuhP1RsWOHJTtqkN24cL6mUisCfGibXnNbWX.iKoRAn9WNSvAQ96ZJ5x jlkmShblaq7ZWtXzrhRA0ww8RQQ123qR0IN4VopIRp1u.cCrtybfcBcGiRZ. FF8b5EPSvbHpaBD7Y5.t8pfueghTISitDBq4c0f66aUcIFfxFi.TVvpQTqMp _.zgrpKsAbE7ZT.NRFJ7vPlRxkGkqX41gAJv06ZQ0XcHVUMHMnfH3jK5SZW9 TnhN25NNsPoZARYu1M2oXLT3_5wSEqPx8arABBPI1o8bRwV1H8MTPM92WjrL a6BAR6YeinL4- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 References: <201107090028.31171.phma@phma.optus.nu> <4E1A7244.2080107@kli.org> In-Reply-To: <4E1A7244.2080107@kli.org> X-Apple-Yahoo-Original-Message-Folder: AAlojbanery Mime-Version: 1.0 (iPad Mail 8G4) Message-Id: <7C93C87E-FBFF-4C18-A7D2-525EBF6BB974@yahoo.com> X-Mailer: iPad Mail (8G4) From: "John E. Clifford" X-Apple-Yahoo-Replied-Msgid: 1_9272580_AHjHjkQAATH4ThpyTgo/FnDLT58 Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: xu dai Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 00:48:56 -0400 To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.136.185.206 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm trying to figure all the various discussions under this label out. Let= me summarize what I understand and then set me straight.=20 1) Since 'xu dai' makes little sense literally, I take it it is an idiom of= some sort, apparently meaning "What is the appropriate UI to use here, wit= h reference to someone else?", I.e., "What would contextually defined so an= d so have used at this point in this sentence --suitably edited?" So, = 'mi xu dai klama?' asks you what someone (contextually you, again, but I su= pposed there is a way to assign it otherwise) would have said in the frame = 'do ... klama.' (or maybe, in this case, 'la pycyn ... klama'). The correc= t answer is presumably something like 'zo ui' ( with an appropriate choice = of UI). The answer which seems to be given is 'ui', which clearly wrong in= two ways: it is now an expression of the respondent's response to being as= ked the question (or something like that) and not someone's response to my = coming and b) if it were to be that it would be deceptive since it would no= t actually express that emotion (in the usual case) but rather simulate it = after it had gone away. 2). 'ko'a broda' is a necessary condition for 'ko'a me lo broda', but not a= sufficient one. 'lo broda' refers to contextually defined brodas, not nec= essarily all brodas. So, while something is a broda, it may not be one the= conversation is concerned with, so not among lo broda (which, by the way, = is not a set in the usual -- Cantorian -- sense, and preferably not in any = other sense neither, though I can't break my habit of putting on an interve= ning entity). The difference is, thus, quite different from that between '= walks' and 'is a walker', whichever of those differences you have in mind (= most of these are covered in Lojban, if at all, by aspects or some such). Sent from my iPad On Jul 10, 2011, at 23:47, "Mark E. Shoulson" wrote: > On 07/09/2011 03:36 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: >> mi cadzu =3D "I walk" >> mi me lo cadzu =3D "I am a walker (pedestrian)" >=20 > No, I'm totally not buying this. (Yes, I read the rest of the thread). = {mi cadzu} *does* mean "I am a walker". If there is a sense in which "walk= " is not "be a walker", you need to spell it out more specifically if you'r= e claiming that that is the distinction engendered by {me}. >=20 > Stela Selkiku wrote: >=20 >> {.i ti'e so'o jbopre ba klama la .bastyn. .i xu do klama} >> "I hear some Lojbanists are going to Boston. Are you going?" >>=20 >> {.i mi na me lo klama .i mi klama la .bastyn. mu'i lo drata ku'i} >> "I'm not one of the goers. I'm going to Boston for another reason, thou= gh." >=20 > This works because of the specificity of {lo} (being completely general, = one of its uses is as a specific gadri; go figure). As you said, {lo klama= } now refers to the contextually appropriate goer(s) we were just speaking = of. But the clear way to say that you're not among them would probably be = {mi na cmima lo'i klama}, which of course relies on the same contextual app= ropriateness, but I think is clearer in the sense of saying that of this se= t of goers, you are not a member. >=20 > I never really liked {me lo} for this reason, and I'm finding myself thin= king {me} should be left as vague as we can comfortably leave it. >=20 > ~mark >=20 > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojb= an?hl=3Den. >=20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.