From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRDsgerwBBoEJodUVA@googlegroups.com Sun Jul 10 21:50:28 2011 Received: from mail-pv0-f189.google.com ([74.125.83.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Qg8Rq-0000r3-Sd; Sun, 10 Jul 2011 21:50:28 -0700 Received: by pvc22 with SMTP id 22sf2115045pvc.16 for ; Sun, 10 Jul 2011 21:49:53 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-yahoo-smtp:x-ymail-osg :x-yahoo-newman-property:references:in-reply-to :x-apple-yahoo-original-message-folder:mime-version:message-id :x-mailer:from:x-apple-yahoo-replied-msgid:subject:date:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=Z5BzlMHq0EMVL6/sFv0tYz/te+hj/8q9aZWqpEdl+ro=; b=HCRfb9SfUQYvqFfSMl1JMwYdz0pxXheR1cpWYDj+M84OK5UBLC//IthCOdZmsSz9aX nUbk3LJ8B4ncAk/3ajc983WDausgndMh0+9kl3VwTTpLRrvAEubKSto8bP7PeeUgPl1F +Fdpt5SJR739syeq0PaAmSW7jy3LCkucC8QtQ= Received: by 10.142.76.8 with SMTP id y8mr444734wfa.15.1310359788293; Sun, 10 Jul 2011 21:49:48 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.68.16.199 with SMTP id i7ls2631709pbd.3.gmail; Sun, 10 Jul 2011 21:49:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.16.198 with SMTP id i6mr1085113pbd.37.1310359787700; Sun, 10 Jul 2011 21:49:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.16.198 with SMTP id i6mr1085112pbd.37.1310359787687; Sun, 10 Jul 2011 21:49:47 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp107-mob.biz.mail.gq1.yahoo.com (smtp107-mob.biz.mail.gq1.yahoo.com [98.136.185.198]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id v9si26049954pbc.2.2011.07.10.21.49.47; Sun, 10 Jul 2011 21:49:47 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.136.185.198 as permitted sender) client-ip=98.136.185.198; Received: (qmail 43177 invoked from network); 11 Jul 2011 04:49:47 -0000 Received: from [24.120.147.182] (kali9putra@24.120.147.182 with xymcookie) by smtp107-mob.biz.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 10 Jul 2011 21:49:46 -0700 PDT X-Yahoo-SMTP: xvGyF4GswBCIFKGaxf5wSjlg3RF108g- X-YMail-OSG: 5ghF0VIVM1n0NZ4.jibJvb02nfMOAadtWh3o0XhexN8w7LF YmNMsqEGOHJ4jWns4aYtWbAylgwe3bDMiZDxg.UpFEAK0DP7OwCxAZmbMLb7 XhGNoriC1ZdKI2uwPTFbRencE8ZaM2gZsqpZeoB78QKuWYLe3rXNMU5kz2pp NX.crfF3BLrAlOU9azLWQtg.sNNI5xkVrji_izjd7TnZYE5XB4Sk3gwp72Bf _dLQJCzY3Xuu42pXbHncXngzRtI.r1.rY6kgN8dN.fyYv4opZOv0mTIz6LJU LyD_VqcRyOghPZIxXVQAFgYFkb__.IjpOU_F_Je3wseZyJR5D.vkPBxJ76QB 4T1siO7T5Q2QOx3sNVJS02apGg7t5D3QwCWVzZhEhDgd66AFuLYtfgN.4ZBu gokvSlHPJ3Yprv7ThypuXhIUg7TJhB.okA4mcIxSNJ5IWS.Q.Wzp7_HZahuG B_KOVUis.C6g- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 References: <201107090028.31171.phma@phma.optus.nu> <4E1A7244.2080107@kli.org> <7C93C87E-FBFF-4C18-A7D2-525EBF6BB974@yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: <7C93C87E-FBFF-4C18-A7D2-525EBF6BB974@yahoo.com> X-Apple-Yahoo-Original-Message-Folder: AAlojbanery Mime-Version: 1.0 (iPad Mail 8G4) Message-Id: <657714FB-AC68-48B8-92AA-011EA37789A6@yahoo.com> X-Mailer: iPad Mail (8G4) From: "John E. Clifford" X-Apple-Yahoo-Replied-Msgid: 1_9273271_AHjHjkQAAAtmThp/RQfjyVUY7fQ Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: xu dai Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 00:56:05 -0400 To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.136.185.198 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I suspect that what the 'xu dai' question is really asking, despite fifty p= lus years of the good fight, is "How do you (or whoever) feel about my comi= ng?", a factual question, not a call for a (unreal) response. Sent from my iPad On Jul 11, 2011, at 0:48, "John E. Clifford" wrote: > I'm trying to figure all the various discussions under this label out. L= et me summarize what I understand and then set me straight.=20 > 1) Since 'xu dai' makes little sense literally, I take it it is an idiom = of some sort, apparently meaning "What is the appropriate UI to use here, w= ith reference to someone else?", I.e., "What would contextually defined so = and so have used at this point in this sentence --suitably edited?" So= , 'mi xu dai klama?' asks you what someone (contextually you, again, but I = supposed there is a way to assign it otherwise) would have said in the fram= e 'do ... klama.' (or maybe, in this case, 'la pycyn ... klama'). The corr= ect answer is presumably something like 'zo ui' ( with an appropriate choic= e of UI). The answer which seems to be given is 'ui', which clearly wrong = in two ways: it is now an expression of the respondent's response to being = asked the question (or something like that) and not someone's response to m= y coming and b) if it were to be that it would be deceptive since it would = not actually express that emotion (in the usual case) but rather simulate i= t after it had gone away. > 2). 'ko'a broda' is a necessary condition for 'ko'a me lo broda', but not= a sufficient one. 'lo broda' refers to contextually defined brodas, not n= ecessarily all brodas. So, while something is a broda, it may not be one t= he conversation is concerned with, so not among lo broda (which, by the way= , is not a set in the usual -- Cantorian -- sense, and preferably not in an= y other sense neither, though I can't break my habit of putting on an inter= vening entity). The difference is, thus, quite different from that between= 'walks' and 'is a walker', whichever of those differences you have in mind= (most of these are covered in Lojban, if at all, by aspects or some such). >=20 > Sent from my iPad >=20 > On Jul 10, 2011, at 23:47, "Mark E. Shoulson" wrote: >=20 >> On 07/09/2011 03:36 PM, Jonathan Jones wrote: >>> mi cadzu =3D "I walk" >>> mi me lo cadzu =3D "I am a walker (pedestrian)" >>=20 >> No, I'm totally not buying this. (Yes, I read the rest of the thread). = {mi cadzu} *does* mean "I am a walker". If there is a sense in which "wal= k" is not "be a walker", you need to spell it out more specifically if you'= re claiming that that is the distinction engendered by {me}. >>=20 >> Stela Selkiku wrote: >>=20 >>> {.i ti'e so'o jbopre ba klama la .bastyn. .i xu do klama} >>> "I hear some Lojbanists are going to Boston. Are you going?" >>>=20 >>> {.i mi na me lo klama .i mi klama la .bastyn. mu'i lo drata ku'i} >>> "I'm not one of the goers. I'm going to Boston for another reason, tho= ugh." >>=20 >> This works because of the specificity of {lo} (being completely general,= one of its uses is as a specific gadri; go figure). As you said, {lo klam= a} now refers to the contextually appropriate goer(s) we were just speaking= of. But the clear way to say that you're not among them would probably be= {mi na cmima lo'i klama}, which of course relies on the same contextual ap= propriateness, but I think is clearer in the sense of saying that of this s= et of goers, you are not a member. >>=20 >> I never really liked {me lo} for this reason, and I'm finding myself thi= nking {me} should be left as vague as we can comfortably leave it. >>=20 >> ~mark >>=20 >> --=20 >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googleg= roups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/loj= ban?hl=3Den. >>=20 >=20 > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojb= an?hl=3Den. >=20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.