From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCJ5uzwBBoEWWNcKg@googlegroups.com Mon Jul 11 10:29:59 2011
Received: from mail-vx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.220.189])
	by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72)
	(envelope-from <lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCJ5uzwBBoEWWNcKg@googlegroups.com>)
	id 1QgKIu-0006Zi-DA; Mon, 11 Jul 2011 10:29:59 -0700
Received: by vxg38 with SMTP id 38sf3074930vxg.16
        for <multiple recipients>; Mon, 11 Jul 2011 10:29:50 -0700 (PDT)
DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed;
        d=googlegroups.com; s=beta;
        h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-yahoo-smtp:x-ymail-osg
         :x-yahoo-newman-property:references:in-reply-to
         :x-apple-yahoo-original-message-folder:mime-version:message-id
         :x-mailer:from:x-apple-yahoo-replied-msgid:subject:date:to
         :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to
         :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post
         :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe
         :content-type:content-transfer-encoding;
        bh=eSbEmvXC/Cg3ly2gYM4hTaAaIUlz8zMGr8A4pRqg8WM=;
        b=Y6n3qsx6OGJ3XFx2K4zLYSwdcneB5kR9dNUtjl2RgKWhbxDEhitwpDIqJfWB47xcxY
         4rnxd6PkXO0bYRH7oAi538qDj1Jz4fLZ7aH5m+TcnfMD3swLHe/KN06cvdRS353Lae/2
         plQXyZMnfeTRlUb/Wrq9QF3O5PIel1lEvzpQ4=
Received: by 10.221.1.11 with SMTP id no11mr589850vcb.13.1310405385182;
        Mon, 11 Jul 2011 10:29:45 -0700 (PDT)
X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com
Received: by 10.52.161.199 with SMTP id xu7ls650628vdb.0.gmail; Mon, 11 Jul
 2011 10:29:43 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.52.90.50 with SMTP id bt18mr1544833vdb.27.1310405383045;
        Mon, 11 Jul 2011 10:29:43 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.52.90.50 with SMTP id bt18mr1544832vdb.27.1310405383031;
        Mon, 11 Jul 2011 10:29:43 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from smtp116-mob.biz.mail.ac4.yahoo.com (smtp116-mob.biz.mail.ac4.yahoo.com [98.136.86.55])
        by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id a10si10994850vdt.0.2011.07.11.10.29.42;
        Mon, 11 Jul 2011 10:29:43 -0700 (PDT)
Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.136.86.55 as permitted sender) client-ip=98.136.86.55;
Received: (qmail 90051 invoked from network); 11 Jul 2011 17:29:42 -0000
Received: from [10.0.42.224] (kali9putra@199.36.244.11 with xymcookie)
        by smtp116-mob.biz.mail.ac4.yahoo.com with SMTP; 11 Jul 2011 10:29:42 -0700 PDT
X-Yahoo-SMTP: xvGyF4GswBCIFKGaxf5wSjlg3RF108g-
X-YMail-OSG: iGKLB9kVM1kbXDNG32nYxv_4lW0o00BhwiAkeZCJ2zI4Tqf
 12bsDfgclxIXUBOzELH2tftpNsvLIAU.knhENGOS1YritUNFF.TLGe7JomDL
 v59cL27jm3Mch6omH00kBZ2GTJIN14vz9Ifjz9b8kySTJUMkel5yTousARlQ
 nsDzF8bCKY2m9bivc67jYTP44SRg_tVFBXcdYZoA_mvfoWGmznEBgx_YGkx8
 EOZSoW_coaYS0QAjq4OtAHeDAZydeFq4OELJC0R8ho6JLL2ZJJwGwK6XAWAm
 zux_5oEJTSUDQnZ6Z6lTEiFwZmXfbpKecADNvvdwZYy2Ei5jz20OdvKa5ayv
 ff7.gYNPzJ8UJgz594mMHL4WXh6ECSrxeCObPqKgeedRr4q_IsZoIEOgY_qm
 CU_4W2zNtnoJ7tQB6dLhFDSQUNwJLvYLGZOGqT5is.SyLsmrNrGcYbyjsiGH
 OA1.xepq8ly49l.SoYm8-
X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3
References: <201107090028.31171.phma@phma.optus.nu> <CA+gZtg+Vz_dipB_Pg2E5nrZtPyy8kqw_HdQLqnG13h3p7Ksjog@mail.gmail.com> <CAAQ0imNbJ2mrDmPi6q4+qHTfmr+DLsjenwgOwxPL4q1rz7R2Fw@mail.gmail.com> <CAPAJj9LOxwtjRtjA0Wqb0PvCwHDbhLzMgjy5qrugjr70oNdfxA@mail.gmail.com> <d1c760d2-2afd-416a-a891-2c2101ea32a0@t7g2000vbv.googlegroups.com> <CAMKwHj1URZqUr9dGm8zuftOhf67KvcvActPS+Wtd76KPE1Kf_w@mail.gmail.com> <4E1A7244.2080107@kli.org> <7C93C87E-FBFF-4C18-A7D2-525EBF6BB974@yahoo.com> <CALm==BV25ksH=U6RWrgZMEdEGcHHSdAZHHY9BQ5cvTxKZ9ArNw@mail.gmail.com>
In-Reply-To: <CALm==BV25ksH=U6RWrgZMEdEGcHHSdAZHHY9BQ5cvTxKZ9ArNw@mail.gmail.com>
X-Apple-Yahoo-Original-Message-Folder: AAlojbanery
Mime-Version: 1.0 (iPad Mail 8G4)
Message-Id: <19C496C1-8E20-4FCE-A40C-2634CC26D4AC@yahoo.com>
X-Mailer: iPad Mail (8G4)
From: "John E. Clifford" <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
X-Apple-Yahoo-Replied-Msgid: 1_9277079_AHnHjkQAABgaThsOKwvPxVF8ERA
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: xu dai
Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 13:36:03 -0400
To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" <lojban@googlegroups.com>
X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com
X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com:
 best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.136.86.55
 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com
Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Precedence: list
Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com
List-ID: <lojban.googlegroups.com>
X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417
List-Post: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/post?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com>
List-Help: <http://groups.google.com/support/?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+help@googlegroups.com>
List-Archive: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en_US>
Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com
List-Subscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+subscribe@googlegroups.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://groups.google.com/group/lojban/subscribe?hl=en_US>, <mailto:lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>
Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
	boundary=Apple-Mail-1--761400143
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit

--Apple-Mail-1--761400143
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Well, that makes sense, sorta.  I wouldn't have take 'xu' as an attitudinal=
, for one thing -- it is too clearly syntactic for that (cf. 'ma').  For an=
other, that usage is hardly what the comments on this thread suggest, which=
 are more along the lines I suggest  -- with exceptions, I admit.

Sent from my iPad

On Jul 11, 2011, at 10:52, ".arpis." <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com> wrote:

>=20
> I'm trying to figure all the various discussions under this label out.  L=
et me summarize what I understand and then set me straight.
> 1) Since 'xu dai' makes little sense literally, I take it it is an idiom =
of some sort, apparently meaning "What is the appropriate UI to use here, w=
ith reference to someone else?", I.e., "What would contextually defined so =
and so have used at this point in this sentence --suitably edited?"      So=
, 'mi xu dai klama?' asks you what someone (contextually you, again, but I =
supposed there is a way to assign it otherwise) would have said in the fram=
e 'do ... klama.' (or maybe, in this case, 'la pycyn ... klama').  The corr=
ect answer is presumably something like 'zo ui' ( with an appropriate choic=
e of UI).  The answer which seems to be given is 'ui', which clearly wrong =
in two ways: it is now an expression of the respondent's response to being =
asked the question (or something like that) and not someone's response to m=
y coming and b) if it were to be that it would be deceptive since it would =
not actually express that emotion (in the usual case) but rather simulate i=
t after it had gone away.
>=20
> I disagree with this interpretation of {xu dai}. Just like {ui dai} ascri=
bes happiness to the listener, {xu dai} ascribes questioning to the listene=
r. This is little use except as a rhetorical device, but AFAICT it's the on=
ly consistent interpretation.
> --=20
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups=
 "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegr=
oups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojb=
an?hl=3Den.

--=20
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou=
ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
?hl=3Den.


--Apple-Mail-1--761400143
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1

<html><body bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><div>Well, that makes sense, sorta. &nbsp;I=
 wouldn't have take 'xu' as an attitudinal, for one thing -- it is too clea=
rly syntactic for that (cf. 'ma'). &nbsp;For another, that usage is hardly =
what the comments on this thread suggest, which are more along the lines I =
suggest &nbsp;-- with exceptions, I admit.<br><br>Sent from my iPad</div><d=
iv><br>On Jul 11, 2011, at 10:52, ".arpis." &lt;<a href=3D"mailto:rpglover6=
4+jbobau@gmail.com">rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com</a>&gt; wrote:<br><br></div=
><div></div><blockquote type=3D"cite"><div><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><=
blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px=
 #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex;">I'm trying to figure all the various discuss=
ions under this label out. &nbsp;Let me summarize what I understand and the=
n set me straight.<br>

1) Since 'xu dai' makes little sense literally, I take it it is an idiom of=
 some sort, apparently meaning "What is the appropriate UI to use here, wit=
h reference to someone else?", I.e., "What would contextually defined so an=
d so have used at this point in this sentence --suitably edited?" &nbsp; &n=
bsp; &nbsp;So, 'mi xu dai klama?' asks you what someone (contextually you, =
again, but I supposed there is a way to assign it otherwise) would have sai=
d in the frame 'do ... klama.' (or maybe, in this case, 'la pycyn ... klama=
'). &nbsp;The correct answer is presumably something like 'zo ui' ( with an=
 appropriate choice of UI). &nbsp;The answer which seems to be given is 'ui=
', which clearly wrong in two ways: it is now an expression of the responde=
nt's response to being asked the question (or something like that) and not =
someone's response to my coming and b) if it were to be that it would be de=
ceptive since it would not actually express that emotion (in the usual case=
) but rather simulate it after it had gone away.<br>
</blockquote><br></div>I disagree with this interpretation of {xu dai}. Jus=
t like {ui dai} ascribes happiness to the listener, {xu dai} ascribes quest=
ioning to the listener. This is little use except as a rhetorical device, b=
ut AFAICT it's the only consistent interpretation.<br>

<p></p>

-- <br>
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.<br>
To post to this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban@googlegroups.=
com">lojban@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to <a href=3D"mailto:lojban+unsu=
bscribe@googlegroups.com">lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br>

For more options, visit this group at <a href=3D"http://groups.google.com/g=
roup/lojban?hl=3Den">http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den</a>.<br>


</div></blockquote></body></html>

<p></p>

-- <br />
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "=
lojban" group.<br />
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.<br />
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou=
ps.com.<br />

For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban=
?hl=3Den.<br />



--Apple-Mail-1--761400143--