From lojban+bncCML0xpmUARCTgO3wBBoE0lPhtw@googlegroups.com Mon Jul 11 11:25:38 2011 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QgLAl-00083e-Fs; Mon, 11 Jul 2011 11:25:38 -0700 Received: by wwf27 with SMTP id 27sf8351225wwf.16 for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2011 11:25:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=3fw+cf6Qp89QcRN3Uy/vKpI21wPC4iLceZ65eeXCcmc=; b=A4CK7fiy3peTznJ72L7zKl9BztXLF6q/n82dZvSZpveUMjsDs9AuoyY4dM8cE1Bo7B ZBnd2iA/hTbHm8p5JaJxmLDDT1eRjsEcNa7ik439Fs63XHD7kdhKqexRpNSNovniN1IY jka0G6EW0wgC6NHNudKePkQsUPo1YtLiCCHKc= Received: by 10.216.168.148 with SMTP id k20mr755327wel.23.1310408723146; Mon, 11 Jul 2011 11:25:23 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.14.30.217 with SMTP id k65ls346140eea.7.gmail; Mon, 11 Jul 2011 11:25:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.14.53.9 with SMTP id f9mr602270eec.43.1310408721828; Mon, 11 Jul 2011 11:25:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.14.53.9 with SMTP id f9mr602269eec.43.1310408721792; Mon, 11 Jul 2011 11:25:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-fx0-f53.google.com (mail-fx0-f53.google.com [209.85.161.53]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id h4si629030fao.0.2011.07.11.11.25.21 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 11 Jul 2011 11:25:21 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.53 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.161.53; Received: by fxd23 with SMTP id 23so2839588fxd.12 for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2011 11:25:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.79.145 with SMTP id p17mr3082828fak.97.1310408721558; Mon, 11 Jul 2011 11:25:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.93.203 with HTTP; Mon, 11 Jul 2011 11:25:21 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <19C496C1-8E20-4FCE-A40C-2634CC26D4AC@yahoo.com> References: <201107090028.31171.phma@phma.optus.nu> <4E1A7244.2080107@kli.org> <7C93C87E-FBFF-4C18-A7D2-525EBF6BB974@yahoo.com> <19C496C1-8E20-4FCE-A40C-2634CC26D4AC@yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 14:25:21 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: xu dai From: Ian Johnson To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.53 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015174481385bec2f04a7cf4e81 --0015174481385bec2f04a7cf4e81 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 {xu} is less syntactic than it seems, because you may want to emphasize that your question pertains to different parts of the sentence; you may want to say, for a contrived example, "Are you going to the store to buy *meat*?", which implicitly asserts that you, the speaker, do know that the listener is going to the store, but do not know what they are going to the store to buy, and have a guess as to what it is. In Lojban you would then say {[pau] do klama le zarci fi'o se vecnu lo rectu xu} or something similar. mu'o mi'e latros On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 1:36 PM, John E. Clifford wrote: > Well, that makes sense, sorta. I wouldn't have take 'xu' as an > attitudinal, for one thing -- it is too clearly syntactic for that (cf. > 'ma'). For another, that usage is hardly what the comments on this thread > suggest, which are more along the lines I suggest -- with exceptions, I > admit. > > Sent from my iPad > > On Jul 11, 2011, at 10:52, ".arpis." wrote: > > > I'm trying to figure all the various discussions under this label out. Let >> me summarize what I understand and then set me straight. >> 1) Since 'xu dai' makes little sense literally, I take it it is an idiom >> of some sort, apparently meaning "What is the appropriate UI to use here, >> with reference to someone else?", I.e., "What would contextually defined so >> and so have used at this point in this sentence --suitably edited?" So, >> 'mi xu dai klama?' asks you what someone (contextually you, again, but I >> supposed there is a way to assign it otherwise) would have said in the frame >> 'do ... klama.' (or maybe, in this case, 'la pycyn ... klama'). The correct >> answer is presumably something like 'zo ui' ( with an appropriate choice of >> UI). The answer which seems to be given is 'ui', which clearly wrong in two >> ways: it is now an expression of the respondent's response to being asked >> the question (or something like that) and not someone's response to my >> coming and b) if it were to be that it would be deceptive since it would not >> actually express that emotion (in the usual case) but rather simulate it >> after it had gone away. >> > > I disagree with this interpretation of {xu dai}. Just like {ui dai} > ascribes happiness to the listener, {xu dai} ascribes questioning to the > listener. This is little use except as a rhetorical device, but AFAICT it's > the only consistent interpretation. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0015174481385bec2f04a7cf4e81 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable {xu} is less syntactic than it seems, because you may want to emphasize tha= t your question pertains to different parts of the sentence; you may want t= o say, for a contrived example, "Are you going to the store to buy = meat?", which implicitly asserts that you, the speaker, do know th= at the listener is going to the store, but do not know what they are going = to the store to buy, and have a guess as to what it is. In Lojban you would= then say {[pau] do klama le zarci fi'o se vecnu lo rectu xu} or someth= ing similar.

mu'o mi'e latros

On Mon, Jul = 11, 2011 at 1:36 PM, John E. Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
Well, that makes sense, sorta. =A0I wouldn= 9;t have take 'xu' as an attitudinal, for one thing -- it is too cl= early syntactic for that (cf. 'ma'). =A0For another, that usage is = hardly what the comments on this thread suggest, which are more along the l= ines I suggest =A0-- with exceptions, I admit.

Sent from my iPad

On Ju= l 11, 2011, at 10:52, ".arpis." <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com> wro= te:


I'm t= rying to figure all the various discussions under this label out. =A0Let me= summarize what I understand and then set me straight.
1) Since 'xu dai' makes little sense literally, I take it it is an = idiom of some sort, apparently meaning "What is the appropriate UI to = use here, with reference to someone else?", I.e., "What would con= textually defined so and so have used at this point in this sentence --suit= ably edited?" =A0 =A0 =A0So, 'mi xu dai klama?' asks you what = someone (contextually you, again, but I supposed there is a way to assign i= t otherwise) would have said in the frame 'do ... klama.' (or maybe= , in this case, 'la pycyn ... klama'). =A0The correct answer is pre= sumably something like 'zo ui' ( with an appropriate choice of UI).= =A0The answer which seems to be given is 'ui', which clearly wrong= in two ways: it is now an expression of the respondent's response to b= eing asked the question (or something like that) and not someone's resp= onse to my coming and b) if it were to be that it would be deceptive since = it would not actually express that emotion (in the usual case) but rather s= imulate it after it had gone away.

I disagree with this interpretation of {xu dai}. Jus= t like {ui dai} ascribes happiness to the listener, {xu dai} ascribes quest= ioning to the listener. This is little use except as a rhetorical device, b= ut AFAICT it's the only consistent interpretation.

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