From lojban+bncCML0xpmUARDOpe7wBBoEDBklxg@googlegroups.com Mon Jul 11 17:18:39 2011 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QgQgM-00083o-LR; Mon, 11 Jul 2011 17:18:39 -0700 Received: by fxd2 with SMTP id 2sf6203096fxd.16 for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2011 17:18:27 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=7mNHBPiRtFy6VSwNPKsjMVA/LYQaTBJ1cMpR3gl/iRQ=; b=ue9oeJyiJSNO7xjGV7dJsprF7hPAa5xHAWjDbreNw5AGJb92/KtwL0ebsH56Crahno kCoxEgAsrhXf8i3q2Ebe2/Wmc18AANe7PRh1zYEELU9xrN12dF+96BRUKkL06ZuNQxU4 vv6QvbPafPBlxF3cz7uH46TFGwkGOVmfGCerU= Received: by 10.223.65.201 with SMTP id k9mr1803439fai.4.1310429903011; Mon, 11 Jul 2011 17:18:23 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.16.207 with SMTP id p15ls1977640bka.3.gmail; Mon, 11 Jul 2011 17:18:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.113.14 with SMTP id y14mr808655bkp.11.1310429901836; Mon, 11 Jul 2011 17:18:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.113.14 with SMTP id y14mr808654bkp.11.1310429901800; Mon, 11 Jul 2011 17:18:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-fx0-f48.google.com (mail-fx0-f48.google.com [209.85.161.48]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id q27si4200400fab.2.2011.07.11.17.18.21 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 11 Jul 2011 17:18:21 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.48 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.161.48; Received: by fxg7 with SMTP id 7so6037243fxg.7 for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2011 17:18:21 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.16.136 with SMTP id o8mr8486330faa.21.1310429901600; Mon, 11 Jul 2011 17:18:21 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.93.203 with HTTP; Mon, 11 Jul 2011 17:18:21 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <55A3224A-D4C3-48D6-9114-692063F6D2B8@yahoo.com> References: <201107090028.31171.phma@phma.optus.nu> <4E1A7244.2080107@kli.org> <7C93C87E-FBFF-4C18-A7D2-525EBF6BB974@yahoo.com> <19C496C1-8E20-4FCE-A40C-2634CC26D4AC@yahoo.com> <55A3224A-D4C3-48D6-9114-692063F6D2B8@yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 20:18:21 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: xu dai From: Ian Johnson To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.48 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001517402910c9b62a04a7d43c2f --001517402910c9b62a04a7d43c2f Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Then what about the discursives? They're not about emotion, but how should their grammar differ from the actual {cnima'o} like {ui}? mu'o mi'e latros On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 5:11 PM, John E. Clifford wrote: > True, but that makes it like several other stress devices ( including > attitudinals to be sure), but that doesn't make it an attitudinal. Again, > asking a question is not expressing an attitude. > > Sent from my iPad > > On Jul 11, 2011, at 14:25, Ian Johnson wrote: > > {xu} is less syntactic than it seems, because you may want to emphasize > that your question pertains to different parts of the sentence; you may want > to say, for a contrived example, "Are you going to the store to buy *meat*?", > which implicitly asserts that you, the speaker, do know that the listener is > going to the store, but do not know what they are going to the store to buy, > and have a guess as to what it is. In Lojban you would then say {[pau] do > klama le zarci fi'o se vecnu lo rectu xu} or something similar. > > mu'o mi'e latros > > On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 1:36 PM, John E. Clifford < > kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote: > >> Well, that makes sense, sorta. I wouldn't have take 'xu' as an >> attitudinal, for one thing -- it is too clearly syntactic for that (cf. >> 'ma'). For another, that usage is hardly what the comments on this thread >> suggest, which are more along the lines I suggest -- with exceptions, I >> admit. >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On Jul 11, 2011, at 10:52, ".arpis." < >> rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com> wrote: >> >> >> I'm trying to figure all the various discussions under this label out. >>> Let me summarize what I understand and then set me straight. >>> 1) Since 'xu dai' makes little sense literally, I take it it is an idiom >>> of some sort, apparently meaning "What is the appropriate UI to use here, >>> with reference to someone else?", I.e., "What would contextually defined so >>> and so have used at this point in this sentence --suitably edited?" So, >>> 'mi xu dai klama?' asks you what someone (contextually you, again, but I >>> supposed there is a way to assign it otherwise) would have said in the frame >>> 'do ... klama.' (or maybe, in this case, 'la pycyn ... klama'). The correct >>> answer is presumably something like 'zo ui' ( with an appropriate choice of >>> UI). The answer which seems to be given is 'ui', which clearly wrong in two >>> ways: it is now an expression of the respondent's response to being asked >>> the question (or something like that) and not someone's response to my >>> coming and b) if it were to be that it would be deceptive since it would not >>> actually express that emotion (in the usual case) but rather simulate it >>> after it had gone away. >>> >> >> I disagree with this interpretation of {xu dai}. Just like {ui dai} >> ascribes happiness to the listener, {xu dai} ascribes questioning to the >> listener. This is little use except as a rhetorical device, but AFAICT it's >> the only consistent interpretation. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to >> lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to >> lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --001517402910c9b62a04a7d43c2f Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Then what about the discursives? They're not about emotion, but how sho= uld their grammar differ from the actual {cnima'o} like {ui}?

mu= 'o mi'e latros

On Mon, Jul 11, 20= 11 at 5:11 PM, John E. Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
True, but that makes it like several other stress devices ( in= cluding attitudinals=A0to be sure), but that doesn't make it an a= ttitudinal. =A0Again, asking a question is not expressing an attitude.

Sent from my iPad

= On Jul 11, 2011, at 14:25, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com> wrote:

{xu} is less syntactic than it se= ems, because you may want to emphasize that your question pertains to diffe= rent parts of the sentence; you may want to say, for a contrived example, &= quot;Are you going to the store to buy meat?", which implicitly= asserts that you, the speaker, do know that the listener is going to the s= tore, but do not know what they are going to the store to buy, and have a g= uess as to what it is. In Lojban you would then say {[pau] do klama le zarc= i fi'o se vecnu lo rectu xu} or something similar.

mu'o mi'e latros

On Mon, Jul = 11, 2011 at 1:36 PM, John E. Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
Well, that makes sense, sorta. =A0I wouldn= 9;t have take 'xu' as an attitudinal, for one thing -- it is too cl= early syntactic for that (cf. 'ma'). =A0For another, that usage is = hardly what the comments on this thread suggest, which are more along the l= ines I suggest =A0-- with exceptions, I admit.

Sent from my iPad

On Jul 11, 2011, a= t 10:52, ".arpis." <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com> wrote:


I'm t= rying to figure all the various discussions under this label out. =A0Let me= summarize what I understand and then set me straight.
1) Since 'xu dai' makes little sense literally, I take it it is an = idiom of some sort, apparently meaning "What is the appropriate UI to = use here, with reference to someone else?", I.e., "What would con= textually defined so and so have used at this point in this sentence --suit= ably edited?" =A0 =A0 =A0So, 'mi xu dai klama?' asks you what = someone (contextually you, again, but I supposed there is a way to assign i= t otherwise) would have said in the frame 'do ... klama.' (or maybe= , in this case, 'la pycyn ... klama'). =A0The correct answer is pre= sumably something like 'zo ui' ( with an appropriate choice of UI).= =A0The answer which seems to be given is 'ui', which clearly wrong= in two ways: it is now an expression of the respondent's response to b= eing asked the question (or something like that) and not someone's resp= onse to my coming and b) if it were to be that it would be deceptive since = it would not actually express that emotion (in the usual case) but rather s= imulate it after it had gone away.

I disagree with this interpretation of {xu dai}. Jus= t like {ui dai} ascribes happiness to the listener, {xu dai} ascribes quest= ioning to the listener. This is little use except as a rhetorical device, b= ut AFAICT it's the only consistent interpretation.

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