I confess I have trouble remembering what are called discursiv= es in Logjamese, but the name sounds like the right sort of thing for 'xu'.= I am not sure just what your point is here. I don't necessaril= y think that these various things have different grammars (syntax) but that= they perform different grammatical functions. Sorry if that was not = clear. 'xu' changes the nature of the sentence in which it occu= rs; the attitudinals do not affect the sentence at all. They are pure frill= s grammatically. If the diascursives are things like "I hope that" (i= n the non-descriptive way "Oh, would that"), then they are are somewhere in= between: they do express something and they also alter the grammar of the = sentence (making it non-assertive, in particular).

From: Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Mon, July 11, 2011 7:18:21 PM
Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: xu dai
Then what about the discursives? They're not about emotion, but how should = their grammar differ from the actual {cnima'o} like {ui}?

mu'o mi'e = latros

On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 5:11 PM, J= ohn E. Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:

True, but th= at makes it like several other stress devices ( including attitudinals to be sure), but that doesn't make it an attitudinal. Again, a= sking a question is not expressing an attitude.

Sent from my iPad

= On Jul 11, 2011, at 14:25, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com> wrote:

{xu} is less syntactic than it se= ems, because you may want to emphasize that your question pertains to diffe= rent parts of the sentence; you may want to say, for a contrived example, "= Are you going to the store to buy meat?", which implicitly asserts t= hat you, the speaker, do know that the listener is going to the store, but = do not know what they are going to the store to buy, and have a guess as to= what it is. In Lojban you would then say {[pau] do klama le zarci fi'o se = vecnu lo rectu xu} or something similar.

mu'o mi'e latros

On Mon, Jul 11, 2011= at 1:36 PM, John E. Clifford <kali9putra@yah= oo.com> wrote:

Well, that makes sense, sorta. I wouldn't have take 'xu' as= an attitudinal, for one thing -- it is too clearly syntactic for that (cf.= 'ma'). For another, that usage is hardly what the comments on this t= hread suggest, which are more along the lines I suggest -- with excep= tions, I admit.

Sent from my iPad

On Jul 11, 2011, a= t 10:52, ".arpis." <rpglover64+jbob= au@gmail.com> wrote:

I'm trying to = figure all the various discussions under this label out. Let me summa= rize what I understand and then set me straight.
1) Since 'xu dai' makes little sense literally, I take it it is an idiom of= some sort, apparently meaning "What is the appropriate UI to use here, wit= h reference to someone else?", I.e., "What would contextually defined so an= d so have used at this point in this sentence --suitably edited?" &n= bsp; So, 'mi xu dai klama?' asks you what someone (contextually you, = again, but I supposed there is a way to assign it otherwise) would have sai= d in the frame 'do ... klama.' (or maybe, in this case, 'la pycyn ... klama= '). The correct answer is presumably something like 'zo ui' ( with an= appropriate choice of UI). The answer which seems to be given is 'ui= ', which clearly wrong in two ways: it is now an expression of the responde= nt's response to being asked the question (or something like that) and not = someone's response to my coming and b) if it were to be that it would be de= ceptive since it would not actually express that emotion (in the usual case) but rather simulate it after it had gone away.

I disagree with this interpretation of {xu dai}. Jus= t like {ui dai} ascribes happiness to the listener, {xu dai} ascribes quest= ioning to the listener. This is little use except as a rhetorical device, b= ut AFAICT it's the only consistent interpretation.

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