From lojban+bncCML0xpmUARDng-_wBBoEil7ifg@googlegroups.com Mon Jul 11 20:39:35 2011 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QgTop-0005ts-B4; Mon, 11 Jul 2011 20:39:35 -0700 Received: by fxd2 with SMTP id 2sf6298890fxd.16 for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2011 20:39:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=ZO18715O3OISa5OpjSw0ZfIahZOBBBvs/gVeoU6bW4I=; b=x4eUDf+ZrvWqs44ouW0I1Aj4cXvEHKAhkKCsAUHJBxiZr3lyDwtpWy7ynGEbhU1cny UfBxDYfuOZ4WwTNoVq/Zbfzbv8IIUDuFkPw+zQ2TPki9iy+b1GDwI7//osIaw3lUj6oQ xAQeUu/sZZiunsUwy7LLE6n9W6TVDxeQzS4fM= Received: by 10.223.76.216 with SMTP id d24mr1199067fak.32.1310441959349; Mon, 11 Jul 2011 20:39:19 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.34.76 with SMTP id k12ls6787938bkd.0.gmail; Mon, 11 Jul 2011 20:39:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.38.143 with SMTP id b15mr794214bke.22.1310441957984; Mon, 11 Jul 2011 20:39:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.38.143 with SMTP id b15mr794213bke.22.1310441957933; Mon, 11 Jul 2011 20:39:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-fx0-f46.google.com (mail-fx0-f46.google.com [209.85.161.46]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id k16si618654fah.0.2011.07.11.20.39.17 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 11 Jul 2011 20:39:17 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.46 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.161.46; Received: by fxh19 with SMTP id 19so4034361fxh.33 for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2011 20:39:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.100.83 with SMTP id x19mr2346479fan.59.1310441957746; Mon, 11 Jul 2011 20:39:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.93.203 with HTTP; Mon, 11 Jul 2011 20:39:17 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1310438893.88955.YahooMailRC@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <201107090028.31171.phma@phma.optus.nu> <4E1A7244.2080107@kli.org> <7C93C87E-FBFF-4C18-A7D2-525EBF6BB974@yahoo.com> <19C496C1-8E20-4FCE-A40C-2634CC26D4AC@yahoo.com> <55A3224A-D4C3-48D6-9114-692063F6D2B8@yahoo.com> <1310438893.88955.YahooMailRC@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Mon, 11 Jul 2011 23:39:17 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: xu dai From: Ian Johnson To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.46 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00151747bf3063e7d704a7d70b06 --00151747bf3063e7d704a7d70b06 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 {xu} changes the *meaning* of the sentence it is in, but it does not change its grammar in any way whatsoever. English wraps more semantic issues, like whether or not you're asking a question, into its grammar than Lojban does. In particular, Lojban removes assertive character from sentences without changes in grammar, using for example {a'o}. mu'o mi'e latros On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 10:48 PM, John E Clifford wrote: > I confess I have trouble remembering what are called discursives in > Logjamese, but the name sounds like the right sort of thing for 'xu'. I am > not sure just what your point is here. I don't necessarily think that these > various things have different grammars (syntax) but that they perform > different grammatical functions. Sorry if that was not clear. 'xu' > changes the nature of the sentence in which it occurs; the attitudinals do > not affect the sentence at all. They are pure frills grammatically. If the > diascursives are things like "I hope that" (in the non-descriptive way "Oh, > would that"), then they are are somewhere in between: they do express > something and they also alter the grammar of the sentence (making it > non-assertive, in particular). > > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Ian Johnson > *To:* lojban@googlegroups.com > *Sent:* Mon, July 11, 2011 7:18:21 PM > *Subject:* Re: [lojban] Re: xu dai > > Then what about the discursives? They're not about emotion, but how should > their grammar differ from the actual {cnima'o} like {ui}? > > mu'o mi'e latros > > On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 5:11 PM, John E. Clifford wrote: > >> True, but that makes it like several other stress devices ( including >> attitudinals to be sure), but that doesn't make it an attitudinal. >> Again, asking a question is not expressing an attitude. >> >> Sent from my iPad >> >> On Jul 11, 2011, at 14:25, Ian Johnson wrote: >> >> {xu} is less syntactic than it seems, because you may want to emphasize >> that your question pertains to different parts of the sentence; you may want >> to say, for a contrived example, "Are you going to the store to buy *meat >> *?", which implicitly asserts that you, the speaker, do know that the >> listener is going to the store, but do not know what they are going to the >> store to buy, and have a guess as to what it is. In Lojban you would then >> say {[pau] do klama le zarci fi'o se vecnu lo rectu xu} or something >> similar. >> >> mu'o mi'e latros >> >> On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 1:36 PM, John E. Clifford < >> kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote: >> >>> Well, that makes sense, sorta. I wouldn't have take 'xu' as an >>> attitudinal, for one thing -- it is too clearly syntactic for that (cf. >>> 'ma'). For another, that usage is hardly what the comments on this thread >>> suggest, which are more along the lines I suggest -- with exceptions, I >>> admit. >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> >>> On Jul 11, 2011, at 10:52, ".arpis." < >>> rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com> wrote: >>> >>> >>> I'm trying to figure all the various discussions under this label out. >>>> Let me summarize what I understand and then set me straight. >>>> 1) Since 'xu dai' makes little sense literally, I take it it is an idiom >>>> of some sort, apparently meaning "What is the appropriate UI to use here, >>>> with reference to someone else?", I.e., "What would contextually defined so >>>> and so have used at this point in this sentence --suitably edited?" So, >>>> 'mi xu dai klama?' asks you what someone (contextually you, again, but I >>>> supposed there is a way to assign it otherwise) would have said in the frame >>>> 'do ... klama.' (or maybe, in this case, 'la pycyn ... klama'). The correct >>>> answer is presumably something like 'zo ui' ( with an appropriate choice of >>>> UI). The answer which seems to be given is 'ui', which clearly wrong in two >>>> ways: it is now an expression of the respondent's response to being asked >>>> the question (or something like that) and not someone's response to my >>>> coming and b) if it were to be that it would be deceptive since it would not >>>> actually express that emotion (in the usual case) but rather simulate it >>>> after it had gone away. >>>> >>> >>> I disagree with this interpretation of {xu dai}. Just like {ui dai} >>> ascribes happiness to the listener, {xu dai} ascribes questioning to the >>> listener. This is little use except as a rhetorical device, but AFAICT it's >>> the only consistent interpretation. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to >>> lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>> . >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to >>> lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. >> > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --00151747bf3063e7d704a7d70b06 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable {xu} changes the *meaning* of the sentence it is in, but it does not change= its grammar in any way whatsoever. English wraps more semantic issues, lik= e whether or not you're asking a question, into its grammar than Lojban= does. In particular, Lojban removes assertive character from sentences wit= hout changes in grammar, using for example {a'o}.

mu'o mi'e latros

On Mon, Jul = 11, 2011 at 10:48 PM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
I confess I have trouble remembering what are called discursiv= es in Logjamese, but the name sounds like the right sort of thing for '= xu'.=A0 I am not sure just what your point is here.=A0 I don't nece= ssarily think that these various things have different grammars (syntax) bu= t that they perform different grammatical functions.=A0 Sorry if that was n= ot clear.=A0 'xu'=A0 changes the nature of the sentence in which it= occurs; the attitudinals do not affect the sentence at all. They are pure = frills grammatically.=A0 If the diascursives are things like "I hope t= hat" (in the non-descriptive way "Oh, would that"), then the= y are are somewhere in between: they do express something and they also alt= er the grammar of the sentence (making it non-assertive, in particular).



From: Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.= com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.c= om
Sent: Mon, July 11, 2011 7= :18:21 PM
Subject: Re: = [lojban] Re: xu dai

Then what about the discursives? They're not about emotion, but how sho= uld their grammar differ from the actual {cnima'o} like {ui}?

mu= 'o mi'e latros

On Mon, Jul 11, 20= 11 at 5:11 PM, John E. Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com<= /a>> wrote:
True, b= ut that makes it like several other stress devices ( including attitudinals= =A0to be sure), but that doesn't make it an attitudinal. =A0Again= , asking a question is not expressing an attitude.

Sent from my iPad
{xu} is less syntactic than it se= ems, because you may want to emphasize that your question pertains to diffe= rent parts of the sentence; you may want to say, for a contrived example, &= quot;Are you going to the store to buy meat?", which implicitly= asserts that you, the speaker, do know that the listener is going to the s= tore, but do not know what they are going to the store to buy, and have a g= uess as to what it is. In Lojban you would then say {[pau] do klama le zarc= i fi'o se vecnu lo rectu xu} or something similar.

mu'o mi'e latros

On Mon, Jul = 11, 2011 at 1:36 PM, John E. Clifford <kali9putra@= yahoo.com> wrote:
Well, that makes sense, sorta. =A0I wouldn't have take 'x= u' as an attitudinal, for one thing -- it is too clearly syntactic for = that (cf. 'ma'). =A0For another, that usage is hardly what the comm= ents on this thread suggest, which are more along the lines I suggest =A0--= with exceptions, I admit.

Sent from my iPad

On Jul 11, 2011, a= t 10:52, ".arpis." <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.= com> wrote:


I'm t= rying to figure all the various discussions under this label out. =A0Let me= summarize what I understand and then set me straight.
1) Since 'xu dai' makes little sense literally, I take it it is an = idiom of some sort, apparently meaning "What is the appropriate UI to = use here, with reference to someone else?", I.e., "What would con= textually defined so and so have used at this point in this sentence --suit= ably edited?" =A0 =A0 =A0So, 'mi xu dai klama?' asks you what = someone (contextually you, again, but I supposed there is a way to assign i= t otherwise) would have said in the frame 'do ... klama.' (or maybe= , in this case, 'la pycyn ... klama'). =A0The correct answer is pre= sumably something like 'zo ui' ( with an appropriate choice of UI).= =A0The answer which seems to be given is 'ui', which clearly wrong= in two ways: it is now an expression of the respondent's response to b= eing asked the question (or something like that) and not someone's resp= onse to my coming and b) if it were to be that it would be deceptive since = it would not actually express that emotion (in the usual case) but rather simulate it after it had gone away.

I disagree with this interpretation of {xu dai}. Jus= t like {ui dai} ascribes happiness to the listener, {xu dai} ascribes quest= ioning to the listener. This is little use except as a rhetorical device, b= ut AFAICT it's the only consistent interpretation.

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