From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBCWnO_wBBoEwoQeOw@googlegroups.com Mon Jul 11 21:31:38 2011 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QgUd8-0005EZ-Uz; Mon, 11 Jul 2011 21:31:38 -0700 Received: by wyh13 with SMTP id 13sf8874814wyh.16 for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2011 21:31:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=9QePTb+ux6OHMMYRFw5+PlDk51UEdSW4TyGIowD5WKo=; b=y+pLjyUFOkJ+9NAZpXkhr/HMVNF4/Wj59/6gAInR/ZGEzzCgr3DI1f1oei0fi0WUlx irNmRkeSePcj8CFXbFz84dT5qWMj6jVaUvOQx1e8bQr/uGDjn4u6eT4cEkMzZVyomcvJ Yt9/80Akvgr6htPxbqEU1A3pzUuxI9nNX81vk= Received: by 10.216.231.86 with SMTP id k64mr2022549weq.26.1310445078667; Mon, 11 Jul 2011 21:31:18 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.227.106.37 with SMTP id v37ls5915246wbo.1.gmail; Mon, 11 Jul 2011 21:31:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.55.142 with SMTP id u14mr149177wbg.14.1310445077664; Mon, 11 Jul 2011 21:31:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.55.142 with SMTP id u14mr149176wbg.14.1310445077617; Mon, 11 Jul 2011 21:31:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f42.google.com (mail-ww0-f42.google.com [74.125.82.42]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id c25si6032397wbp.1.2011.07.11.21.31.17 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 11 Jul 2011 21:31:17 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.42 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.42; Received: by wwg11 with SMTP id 11so2753943wwg.1 for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2011 21:31:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.235.95 with SMTP id t73mr4837513weq.10.1310445077269; Mon, 11 Jul 2011 21:31:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.71.77 with HTTP; Mon, 11 Jul 2011 21:30:57 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1310438893.88955.YahooMailRC@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <201107090028.31171.phma@phma.optus.nu> <4E1A7244.2080107@kli.org> <7C93C87E-FBFF-4C18-A7D2-525EBF6BB974@yahoo.com> <19C496C1-8E20-4FCE-A40C-2634CC26D4AC@yahoo.com> <55A3224A-D4C3-48D6-9114-692063F6D2B8@yahoo.com> <1310438893.88955.YahooMailRC@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: Luke Bergen Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 00:30:57 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: xu dai To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.42 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I think we've done this one before as well. Unless things have changed. The chapter 13 sections 2 and 3 from the CLL indicates (to me at least) that the attitudinals themselves are grouped into two distinct sub-groups. The "pure emotion indicators" and the "propositional attitude indicators". An excerpt from section 3: " As mentioned at the beginning of Section 2, attitudinals may be divided into two groups, the pure emotion indicators explained in that section, and a contrasting group which may be called the ``propositional attitude indicators''. These indicators establish an internal, hypothetical world which the speaker is reacting to, distinct from the world as it really is. Thus we may be expressing our attitude towards ``what the world would be like if ...'', or more directly stating our attitude towards making the potential world a reality. In general, the bridi paraphrases of pure emotions look (in English) something like ``I'm going to the market, and I'm happy about it''. The emotion is present with the subject of the primary claim, but is logically independent of it. Propositional attitudes, though, look more like ``I intend to go to the market'', where the main claim is logically subordinate to the intention: I am not claiming that I am actually going to the market, but merely that I intend to. [snip] In fact, the entire distinction between pure emotions and propositional attitudes is itself a bit shaky: ``.u'u'' can be seen as a propositional attitude indicator meaning ``I regret that ...'', and ``a'e'' (discussed below) can be seen as a pure emotion meaning ``I'm awake/aware''. The division of the attitudinals into pure-emotion and propositional-attitude classes in this chapter is mostly by way of explanation; it is not intended to permit firm rulings on specific points. Attitudinals are the part of Lojban most distant from the ``logical language'' aspect. " From this it is pretty clear that at the very least, the author of this chapter intended that {.ai mi klama lo zarci} should mean "I intend to go to the store". mu'o mi'e la .cribe. On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 10:48 PM, John E Clifford wr= ote: > I confess I have trouble remembering what are called discursives in > Logjamese, but the name sounds like the right sort of thing for 'xu'.=A0 = I am > not sure just what your point is here.=A0 I don't necessarily think that = these > various things have different grammars (syntax) but that they perform > different grammatical functions.=A0 Sorry if that was not clear.=A0 'xu' > changes the nature of the sentence in which it occurs; the attitudinals d= o > not affect the sentence at all. They are pure frills grammatically.=A0 If= the > diascursives are things like "I hope that" (in the non-descriptive way "O= h, > would that"), then they are are somewhere in between: they do express > something and they also alter the grammar of the sentence (making it > non-assertive, in particular). > > > ________________________________ > From: Ian Johnson > To: lojban@googlegroups.com > Sent: Mon, July 11, 2011 7:18:21 PM > Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: xu dai > > Then what about the discursives? They're not about emotion, but how shoul= d > their grammar differ from the actual {cnima'o} like {ui}? > > mu'o mi'e latros > > On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 5:11 PM, John E. Clifford > wrote: >> >> True, but that makes it like several other stress devices ( including >> attitudinals=A0to be sure), but that doesn't make it an attitudinal. =A0= Again, >> asking a question is not expressing an attitude. >> Sent from my iPad >> On Jul 11, 2011, at 14:25, Ian Johnson wrote: >> >> {xu} is less syntactic than it seems, because you may want to emphasize >> that your question pertains to different parts of the sentence; you may = want >> to say, for a contrived example, "Are you going to the store to buy meat= ?", >> which implicitly asserts that you, the speaker, do know that the listene= r is >> going to the store, but do not know what they are going to the store to = buy, >> and have a guess as to what it is. In Lojban you would then say {[pau] d= o >> klama le zarci fi'o se vecnu lo rectu xu} or something similar. >> >> mu'o mi'e latros >> >> On Mon, Jul 11, 2011 at 1:36 PM, John E. Clifford >> wrote: >>> >>> Well, that makes sense, sorta. =A0I wouldn't have take 'xu' as an >>> attitudinal, for one thing -- it is too clearly syntactic for that (cf. >>> 'ma'). =A0For another, that usage is hardly what the comments on this t= hread >>> suggest, which are more along the lines I suggest =A0-- with exceptions= , I >>> admit. >>> >>> Sent from my iPad >>> On Jul 11, 2011, at 10:52, ".arpis." wrot= e: >>> >>> >>>> I'm trying to figure all the various discussions under this label out. >>>> =A0Let me summarize what I understand and then set me straight. >>>> 1) Since 'xu dai' makes little sense literally, I take it it is an idi= om >>>> of some sort, apparently meaning "What is the appropriate UI to use he= re, >>>> with reference to someone else?", I.e., "What would contextually defin= ed so >>>> and so have used at this point in this sentence --suitably edited?" = =A0 =A0 =A0So, >>>> 'mi xu dai klama?' asks you what someone (contextually you, again, but= I >>>> supposed there is a way to assign it otherwise) would have said in the= frame >>>> 'do ... klama.' (or maybe, in this case, 'la pycyn ... klama'). =A0The= correct >>>> answer is presumably something like 'zo ui' ( with an appropriate choi= ce of >>>> UI). =A0The answer which seems to be given is 'ui', which clearly wron= g in two >>>> ways: it is now an expression of the respondent's response to being as= ked >>>> the question (or something like that) and not someone's response to my >>>> coming and b) if it were to be that it would be deceptive since it wou= ld not >>>> actually express that emotion (in the usual case) but rather simulate = it >>>> after it had gone away. >>> >>> I disagree with this interpretation of {xu dai}. Just like {ui dai} >>> ascribes happiness to the listener, {xu dai} ascribes questioning to th= e >>> listener. This is little use except as a rhetorical device, but AFAICT = it's >>> the only consistent interpretation. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Grou= ps >>> "lojban" group. >>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >>> For more options, visit this group at >>> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. 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