From lojban+bncCMHEmaCOBhCG2-_wBBoEmuEBzQ@googlegroups.com Mon Jul 11 23:45:39 2011 Received: from mail-yi0-f61.google.com ([209.85.218.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QgWiv-00043v-FT; Mon, 11 Jul 2011 23:45:39 -0700 Received: by yie12 with SMTP id 12sf5056181yie.16 for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2011 23:45:31 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=kX/T7+E5oVMhzIBrtvXLnIoAdgEZOeNtJumXytzeSZw=; b=Bhs8Y5KZM2ElnCEC68s1+8557rehL/nwEWmgVzrUrZY0zBoHSieDL07SMWYRHXl4QJ Xgv+0AwV+joJsy6SfEwcmDoHFB896sPgDvBdpYYcESxuxN5VtmUemaxN6tEgcr9Ho+S+ veAAEI38KsCRwrdXSJ2Aypl/C9ChX28n9Y2kY= Received: by 10.91.67.26 with SMTP id u26mr764671agk.50.1310453126753; Mon, 11 Jul 2011 23:45:26 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.185.5 with SMTP id cm5ls1680370ibb.3.gmail; Mon, 11 Jul 2011 23:45:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.149.68 with SMTP id u4mr102196icv.81.1310453124660; Mon, 11 Jul 2011 23:45:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.149.68 with SMTP id u4mr102195icv.81.1310453124648; Mon, 11 Jul 2011 23:45:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-iw0-f176.google.com (mail-iw0-f176.google.com [209.85.214.176]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id g20si5496462icm.5.2011.07.11.23.45.23 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Mon, 11 Jul 2011 23:45:23 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.176 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.214.176; Received: by iwi5 with SMTP id 5so6463176iwi.35 for ; Mon, 11 Jul 2011 23:45:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.231.29.132 with SMTP id q4mr5194728ibc.169.1310453123018; Mon, 11 Jul 2011 23:45:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.231.176.11 with HTTP; Mon, 11 Jul 2011 23:45:22 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <12303ddb-2c2f-4a39-a1d8-63d0ef58eba7@a10g2000vbz.googlegroups.com> References: <201107040342.20416.phma@phma.optus.nu> <12303ddb-2c2f-4a39-a1d8-63d0ef58eba7@a10g2000vbz.googlegroups.com> Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 00:45:22 -0600 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Writing the accent instead of the capital letter From: Jonathan Jones To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: eyeonus@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of eyeonus@gmail.com designates 209.85.214.176 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=eyeonus@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=00151774067ce470b504a7d9a49b --00151774067ce470b504a7d9a49b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable How to mark non-standard stress is not a rule. Being required to do so is. You're allowed to mark stress however you want, as long as you do it. On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 12:34 PM, =C1lvaro Vallejo wro= te: > Me too! > > I vote with both my hands in favor of this... Please let's get rid of > capital letters forever in Lojban! > > Probably we are late for such suggestions (aren't the rules for Lojban > already frozen?), but this was my first thought when I met Lojban and > still it is! > > I think acute accent is more common in computer keyboards than the > grave accent, but I could be wrong. > > Also, the rule should be as simple as possible. I think a diphthongue > has always a stressed vowel and an (or two in case of triphthongues) > unaccented vowel(s). Then the stressed one would have the accent. > > In the case of "sautuesrydyfytyn", the one who created the cmene would > probably know where it should be stressed. I mean: where do you (or > the "owner" of the cmene) stress the cmene when pronouncing it? there > you should place the accent. > > mu'o mi'e la =E1lbaros > > The Spanish accentuation system is so complex and full or > irregularities that we shouldn't take it as a model. > > On Jul 4, 4:17 am, Remo Dentato wrote: > > On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 9:42 AM, Pierre Abbat wrote= : > > > I've been thinking about writing the stress with an accent instead of= a > > > capital letter. > > > > I would be extremely in favor of this! > > > > I have personally always found a little bit disturbing the use of > > capital letters for marking the stressed syllable. > > I suspect there is some historical reason for that (I guess US > > typewriters had no accented letters at the time Lojban born :) ). > > > > Nowadays I think we could make good use of accents. Just compare > > {j=F2sefin} with {JOsefin} or {fil=ECp} with {filIP}. Our language is > > already ugly enough without having to mix lower and upper case. > > > > I would not care for which accent to use. I would go for the grave > > accent (=E0=E8=EC=F2=F9) because that's what Italian uses most but I do= n't feel > > so strong about it. Up to the point I won't even be prescriptive on > > this: any accent would do. > > > > Hope you get enough people backing up your proposal. > > > > Remo > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > --=20 mu'o mi'e .aionys. .i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.luk. mi patfu do zo'o (Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. :D ) --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --00151774067ce470b504a7d9a49b Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable How to mark non-standard stress is not a rule. Being required to do so is.<= br>
You're allowed to mark stress however you want, as long as you d= o it.

On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 12:34 PM, = =C1lvaro Vallejo <avallejor@gmail.com> wrote:
Me too!

I vote with both my hands in favor of this... Please let's get rid of capital letters forever in Lojban!

Probably we are late for such suggestions (aren't the rules for Lojban<= br> already frozen?), but this was my first thought when I met Lojban and
still it is!

I think acute accent is more common in computer keyboards than the
grave accent, but I could be wrong.

Also, the rule should be as simple as possible. I think a diphthongue
has always a stressed vowel and an (or two in case of triphthongues)
unaccented vowel(s). Then the stressed one would have the accent.

In the case of "sautuesrydyfytyn", the one who created the cmene = would
probably know where it should be stressed. I mean: where do you (or
the "owner" of the cmene) stress the cmene when pronouncing it? t= here
you should place the accent.

mu'o mi'e la =E1lbaros

The Spanish accentuation system is so complex and full or
irregularities that we shouldn't take it as a model.

On Jul 4, 4:17=A0am, Remo Dentato <rdent...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, Jul 4, 2011 at 9:42 AM, Pier= re Abbat <p...@phma.optus.nu&g= t; wrote:
> > I've been thinking about writing the stress with an accent in= stead of a
> > capital letter.
>
> I would be extremely in favor of this!
>
> I have personally always found a little bit disturbing the use of
> capital letters for marking the stressed syllable.
> I suspect there is some historical reason for that (I guess US
> typewriters had no accented letters at the time Lojban born :) ).
>
> Nowadays I think we could make good use of accents. Just compare
> {j=F2sefin} with {JOsefin} or {fil=ECp} with {filIP}. Our language is<= br> > already ugly enough without having to mix lower and upper case.
>
> I would not care for which accent to use. I would go for the grave
> accent (=E0=E8=EC=F2=F9) because that's what Italian uses most but= I don't feel
> so strong about it. Up to the point I won't even be prescriptive o= n
> this: any accent would do.
>
> Hope you get enough people backing up your proposal.
>
> Remo

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--
mu'o mi= 'e .aionys.

.i.e'ucai ko cmima lo pilno be denpa bu .i doi.l= uk. mi patfu do zo'o
(Come to the Dot Side! Luke, I am your father. = :D )

--
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