From lojban+bncCNf8pM-bDBCTo_DwBBoELz6XKw@googlegroups.com Tue Jul 12 02:19:29 2011 Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QgZ7l-0002Gz-SR; Tue, 12 Jul 2011 02:19:28 -0700 Received: by vws2 with SMTP id 2sf3368237vws.16 for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2011 02:19:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=2Pje6hUOEvCpj/pG+Cf15JnpwJj22wmbeURUWqq04Ew=; b=matXebH/kZKO391Vtyp+hxsB6LXytA5UCcjYmFCz1bcIFtOKoTtAN2N3eVA/hH9F2c CsF8n+SX8oHi99Nd/HboebAmRFbp6ZQkC/jrLhQsDoPP1HNT1Oq/UQI3m0JiwxYyYQsl owCQNhbAFXvu0ehKRXzdbR/aMovwy2SyGTAd4= Received: by 10.220.118.148 with SMTP id v20mr905615vcq.53.1310462355032; Tue, 12 Jul 2011 02:19:15 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.52.96.197 with SMTP id du5ls10861vdb.1.gmail; Tue, 12 Jul 2011 02:19:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.96.161 with SMTP id dt1mr1592812vdb.8.1310462354258; Tue, 12 Jul 2011 02:19:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.96.161 with SMTP id dt1mr1592811vdb.8.1310462354251; Tue, 12 Jul 2011 02:19:14 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f176.google.com (mail-qy0-f176.google.com [209.85.216.176]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id bv16si2275556vdc.1.2011.07.12.02.19.13 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 12 Jul 2011 02:19:13 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.176 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.176; Received: by qyk4 with SMTP id 4so3301639qyk.0 for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2011 02:19:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.105.72 with SMTP id s8mr4424016qco.98.1310462352921; Tue, 12 Jul 2011 02:19:12 -0700 (PDT) Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.48.5 with HTTP; Tue, 12 Jul 2011 02:19:12 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1310438893.88955.YahooMailRC@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <201107090028.31171.phma@phma.optus.nu> <4E1A7244.2080107@kli.org> <7C93C87E-FBFF-4C18-A7D2-525EBF6BB974@yahoo.com> <19C496C1-8E20-4FCE-A40C-2634CC26D4AC@yahoo.com> <55A3224A-D4C3-48D6-9114-692063F6D2B8@yahoo.com> <1310438893.88955.YahooMailRC@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 10:19:12 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: xu dai From: tijlan To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: paskios@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.176 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=paskios@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 12 July 2011 03:48, John E Clifford wrote: > 'xu'=A0changes the nature of the sentence in which it occurs; the attitud= inals do > not affect the sentence at all. They are pure frills grammatically.=A0 If= the > diascursives are things like "I hope that" (in the non-descriptive way "O= h, > would that"), then they are are somewhere in between: they do express > something and they also alter the grammar of the sentence (making it > non-assertive, in particular). If one said ".oi ti crino" instead of "ti crino", that could well change the nature of the sentence, such that the addressee might be tempted to respond in a certain different way: A: ti crino (This is green.) B: melbi (Beautiful.) A: .oi ti crino (Hey, this is green!) B: raktu fi ma (What's wrong with that?) The attitudinals can be more than just pure frills. They can affect the course of the dialogue. And that's the case for "xu" and other 'discursives' as well: A: ti kukte (This is delicious.) B: mi jukpa (I cooked it.) A: xu ti kukte (Is this good?) B: go'i .a'o (I hope so.) The difference is that 'discursives' prescriptively operate on the utterer's intention to control the flow of the conversation. They are explicitly dialogue-determinant with a pre-defined aim. But that doesn't mean the other UI can't have some intentional or accidental discursive effects. On 11 July 2011 22:11, John E. Clifford wrote: > Again, asking a question is not expressing an attitude. An attitude is whatever way you behave towards something that shows your intention or state of mind. You cannot ask a real question without expressing that your mind is looking for an answer regarding something, the focus of the inquiry. Lojban has two main means to indicate an interrogative focus: a) place-holders -- e.g. .i [xo] [ma] [ji] [ma] [mo] b) place-markers -- e.g. .i [_xu [pa]_xu [do]_xu [je]_xu [mi]_xu [klama]_= xu With either means, the addressee is to understand that the utterer has intended the sentence to be interrogative, which is a distinct type of (at least linguistic) attitude, mood. Both means can be considered to carry an attitudinal drive. mu'o mi'e tijlan --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.