From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRDd__DwBBoEkPQhvA@googlegroups.com Tue Jul 12 05:36:58 2011 Received: from mail-qw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.216.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QgcCu-0003r3-KV; Tue, 12 Jul 2011 05:36:58 -0700 Received: by qwh5 with SMTP id 5sf6203960qwh.16 for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2011 05:36:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=cQ1sO418Z4CLwLkqSxGu1HadPox345o9ChqmXyYARXo=; b=6yHZpgbK2vC75E/Cc5VRgJFKmjVEN1iON5QC3w/qPXJA/lZEIfdPY4qz0NJBVsiHAt AHU7d2FjsOTJ7yXdtZQWfesGQvsZUAHdTjYI8qUhWp89JuIlNK+axCNrM93KiLkFp8t4 W7mJQp933zaxOe7AbgwBxIalr8WL9odzZLlbk= Received: by 10.229.1.131 with SMTP id 3mr792010qcf.3.1310474205957; Tue, 12 Jul 2011 05:36:45 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.181.73 with SMTP id bx9ls33615qab.6.gmail; Tue, 12 Jul 2011 05:36:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.126.224 with SMTP id d32mr7615768qas.25.1310474204326; Tue, 12 Jul 2011 05:36:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.126.224 with SMTP id d32mr7615767qas.25.1310474204314; Tue, 12 Jul 2011 05:36:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vx0-f171.google.com ([209.85.220.171]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ix17si6671860qcb.3.2011.07.12.05.36.44 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 12 Jul 2011 05:36:44 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.171 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.220.171; Received: by vxh11 with SMTP id 11so5628137vxh.16 for ; Tue, 12 Jul 2011 05:36:44 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.95.206 with SMTP id dm14mr3335285vdb.378.1310474204022; Tue, 12 Jul 2011 05:36:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.111.198 with HTTP; Tue, 12 Jul 2011 05:36:43 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <201107120816.20708.phma@phma.optus.nu> References: <201107040342.20416.phma@phma.optus.nu> <12303ddb-2c2f-4a39-a1d8-63d0ef58eba7@a10g2000vbz.googlegroups.com> <201107120816.20708.phma@phma.optus.nu> Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2011 09:36:43 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: Writing the accent instead of the capital letter From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.171 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jul 12, 2011 at 9:16 AM, Pierre Abbat wrote: > On Tuesday 12 July 2011 02:45:22 Jonathan Jones wrote: >> How to mark non-standard stress is not a rule. Being required to do so i= s. >> >> You're allowed to mark stress however you want, as long as you do it. > > We don't have a clear and general rule on where the default stress is. Th= e > rule is clear in the case where the last two syllables are O-O, O-OI, OI-= O, > OI-OI, Y-O, or Y-OI, where Y is "y", O is any other single vowel, and OI = is > any falling diphthong not including "y". It is not clear what the rule is= if > the last two syllables are Y-Y, IO-Y, IY-A, or various other combinations > that don't occur in brivla. That's true, but it doesn't matter, because "non-standard" or "non-default" stress is irrelevant. The important distinction is between obligatory and optional stress. Obligatory stress must be marked, optional stress is optional, and it need not be marked. The only obligatory stress is the stress on the penultimate syllable of each brivla. That stress is usually marked by a space at the end of the brivla, which allows you to figure out which syllable is the penultimate one. If you don't write a space there, then you need to mark the obligatory stress in some other way, so "denpa bu" or "d=E9npabu" or "dEnpabu", or "DENpabu" but not "denpabu" which is a brivla stressed on the "a". Optional stress is the stress that is allowed on any syllable of a cmavo or of a cmevla (you can even stress more than one syllable in a long cmevla if you wish, but brivla, no matter how long, have only one stressed syllable). These optional cmavo and cmevla stresses need never be marked, they don't change the word, "c=F3'o" or "co'=F3" is the same word, just as using different tones or using different variants of "r" doesn't change the word, but if for some reason you want to mark it, it doesn't hurt either. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.