From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRDVs_fwBBoEbSgMhQ@googlegroups.com Wed Jul 13 10:46:11 2011 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Qh3Vg-0007sm-If; Wed, 13 Jul 2011 10:46:11 -0700 Received: by gyg4 with SMTP id 4sf6788030gyg.16 for ; Wed, 13 Jul 2011 10:46:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id :x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references:message-id:date:from:subject:to :in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=EMBP5K4XiOMPdOJa3mQEqmpAmWYM8fHhkX1DS9rSN9c=; b=zJrpLdwbQHlKmSJFJjHcAIkz0ijjr6VA4jpegqvgF0KlYnbvBuO+NJqN/7fKAdAS34 qNFjLCyS6Vz6N8/Yyjs89P6UKaW2hSWTnQRlQJMRypMsbMq6EqrjJOZVJkezsaphgvGv IvL8ZQw7UsmCtu6vdJzoSSF+A3Gr2VwF2526A= Received: by 10.236.195.34 with SMTP id o22mr212596yhn.6.1310579157694; Wed, 13 Jul 2011 10:45:57 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.100.30.24 with SMTP id d24ls222217and.6.gmail; Wed, 13 Jul 2011 10:45:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.152.22 with SMTP id e22mr503594ano.20.1310579154482; Wed, 13 Jul 2011 10:45:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.101.152.22 with SMTP id e22mr503593ano.20.1310579154466; Wed, 13 Jul 2011 10:45:54 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm18.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm18.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com [66.94.237.219]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id t25si5240482anp.1.2011.07.13.10.45.54; Wed, 13 Jul 2011 10:45:54 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.219 as permitted sender) client-ip=66.94.237.219; Received: from [66.94.237.193] by nm18.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Jul 2011 17:45:54 -0000 Received: from [66.94.237.121] by tm4.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Jul 2011 17:45:54 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1026.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 13 Jul 2011 17:45:54 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 78514.27652.bm@omp1026.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 64232 invoked by uid 60001); 13 Jul 2011 17:45:53 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: TfBycnEVM1no9LfNNPtBMM5Vd4gJSR06XR8CHjHPaHAW.v_ Jp5tb.oSo2tQgRbLXpxfSfh4CiQBYsZ0hylmP_Cmh0bFNkmoF1GNHR0w9V_C YxyrT_m_wPkd_rtUkkn50eDnJPvjVh58O3dH.uHki0kgkPryeFqQP0kZuFBy 8iLfQuewIH1Qb791VL3EEgHaP1DmrkouaHD8u29NWGEwZ3aY0FxJlQvYv8o7 zwG_Fi5SNT3yDuGnXCHoQnh6Dg5nx5QEwyH_ybGT2fjNycZWFmPnUxCJ2hLN nR.p53hssghKQFTIoos3ToO4Ky8Sy3OYZOcaqJJMwQEXXnsiX0uO3HgRME41 POFbNE3XgBYf7uedKuMUVg1QKKrLScP1IElO7umrWKsJrNHzyYiKXjNySLaB lMk6nHEaG2Hj442tOfCYdEdj3O6EbbSPYn5EYfv5Ik30e49nn7Kk2zYkJkCw w1EH8PRMQwptZbGL3ISnBKe35E_ADP6bHE1AP1A4_8A-- Received: from [99.92.108.41] by web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Wed, 13 Jul 2011 10:45:53 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/572 YahooMailWebService/0.8.112.307740 References: <201107090028.31171.phma@phma.optus.nu> <4E1A7244.2080107@kli.org> <7C93C87E-FBFF-4C18-A7D2-525EBF6BB974@yahoo.com> <19C496C1-8E20-4FCE-A40C-2634CC26D4AC@yahoo.com> <55A3224A-D4C3-48D6-9114-692063F6D2B8@yahoo.com> <1310438893.88955.YahooMailRC@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1310579153.44690.YahooMailRC@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Wed, 13 Jul 2011 10:45:53 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: xu dai To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.219 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 We seem to be wading into a definitional swamp. To stop before we get in over our heads, can we agree on the following. Sentences can be used to perform a variety of speech acts. These acts fall into several families, the most commonly mentioned being Informative, Directive, and Expressive. Attitudinals, insofar as they are linguistic at all (a disputed point, but more likely for Lojban than generally) are Expressive. mirroring the inner states of the speaker. They may influence the direction of the conversation (as may anything said) but that is not their role. Questions, on the other hand, are Directive: they aim to influence someone else's behavior, in this case, come up with an answer, so the behavior to be influenced is linguistic, too. That is, questions are intended to influence ths course of the conversation (though not, except accidentally, non-linguistic behavior). Questions may be accompanied by any emotion whatsoever, curiosity being a common one, but probably not more common than politeness and boredom. So, to get back to the original question, I can have an empathetic feeling matching someone else's feeling and express my feeling (not someone else's) using 'dai'. What would be the parallel in asking a question? Apparently, having a sense that another person wants to ask a question so asking it for them. It is my question. even if I don't care about the answer and someone else does. just as it is my feeling, even if it reflects someone else's emotions, I don't find the "just as" at all plausible and, even if it were, what could be the point of marking this -- except, perhaps to disassociate yourself from the question, an occasionally useful ploy. ----- Original Message ---- From: tijlan To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Tue, July 12, 2011 4:19:12 AM Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: xu dai On 12 July 2011 03:48, John E Clifford wrote: > 'xu' changes the nature of the sentence in which it occurs; the attitudinals do > not affect the sentence at all. They are pure frills grammatically. If the > diascursives are things like "I hope that" (in the non-descriptive way "Oh, > would that"), then they are are somewhere in between: they do express > something and they also alter the grammar of the sentence (making it > non-assertive, in particular). If one said ".oi ti crino" instead of "ti crino", that could well change the nature of the sentence, such that the addressee might be tempted to respond in a certain different way: A: ti crino (This is green.) B: melbi (Beautiful.) A: .oi ti crino (Hey, this is green!) B: raktu fi ma (What's wrong with that?) The attitudinals can be more than just pure frills. They can affect the course of the dialogue. And that's the case for "xu" and other 'discursives' as well: A: ti kukte (This is delicious.) B: mi jukpa (I cooked it.) A: xu ti kukte (Is this good?) B: go'i .a'o (I hope so.) The difference is that 'discursives' prescriptively operate on the utterer's intention to control the flow of the conversation. They are explicitly dialogue-determinant with a pre-defined aim. But that doesn't mean the other UI can't have some intentional or accidental discursive effects. On 11 July 2011 22:11, John E. Clifford wrote: > Again, asking a question is not expressing an attitude. An attitude is whatever way you behave towards something that shows your intention or state of mind. You cannot ask a real question without expressing that your mind is looking for an answer regarding something, the focus of the inquiry. Lojban has two main means to indicate an interrogative focus: a) place-holders -- e.g. .i [xo] [ma] [ji] [ma] [mo] b) place-markers -- e.g. .i [_xu [pa]_xu [do]_xu [je]_xu [mi]_xu [klama]_xu With either means, the addressee is to understand that the utterer has intended the sentence to be interrogative, which is a distinct type of (at least linguistic) attitude, mood. Both means can be considered to carry an attitudinal drive. mu'o mi'e tijlan -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.