From lojban+bncCIycn8S8DhDwtvvwBBoEzoVIPQ@googlegroups.com Thu Jul 14 05:05:17 2011 Received: from mail-pv0-f189.google.com ([74.125.83.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QhKfL-0001GU-JR; Thu, 14 Jul 2011 05:05:17 -0700 Received: by pvc22 with SMTP id 22sf143213pvc.16 for ; Thu, 14 Jul 2011 05:05:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=B9mZn0PUnuDqAXwKBPDX5ht2KbMnvuRkzPPooimQTcY=; b=sy41inZ6Xp/ihRrk0Bxj5V3jgh/kbTnXNGypiHUV/t7tTmYJBEumsgBUag2EnyP7ii wl/bSmgjYHx+5M1RzrizhyIFciqekJHH08ZRzfPjm0Vt53YGhzlz8m0brcT7MqW/CcKV tgKHHTbzMdO84Zfcyg+TjHk8fTSec8JMtTQE8= Received: by 10.68.2.232 with SMTP id 8mr292070pbx.17.1310645104968; Thu, 14 Jul 2011 05:05:04 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.68.59.41 with SMTP id w9ls995090pbq.1.gmail; Thu, 14 Jul 2011 05:05:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.25.164 with SMTP id d4mr607025pbg.3.1310645103156; Thu, 14 Jul 2011 05:05:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.25.164 with SMTP id d4mr607024pbg.3.1310645103115; Thu, 14 Jul 2011 05:05:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-pv0-f175.google.com (mail-pv0-f175.google.com [74.125.83.175]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id v9si443326pbc.2.2011.07.14.05.05.02 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 14 Jul 2011 05:05:02 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.175 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.83.175; Received: by mail-pv0-f175.google.com with SMTP id 24so154463pvf.6 for ; Thu, 14 Jul 2011 05:05:02 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.67.206 with SMTP id p14mr2511110pbt.192.1310645101662; Thu, 14 Jul 2011 05:05:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.71.132 with HTTP; Thu, 14 Jul 2011 05:05:01 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 08:05:01 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] girzu gi'i gunma gi'i se gunma From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 74.125.83.175 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0cd2df22b612db04a80657f4 --000e0cd2df22b612db04a80657f4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I'm personally of the opinion that it should be ce, but Xorxes likes to b= e expansive about gadri and sumti types... --gejyspa On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 7:30 AM, tijlan wrote: > Somebody brought the following Alice sentence to my attention: > > no=92i la ciftoldi ku joi la alis ze=92a simxu le nu smaji catlu (older > version) > no'i la ciftoldi joi la .alis. ze'a simxu lo nu smaji catlu (newer > version) > > Why "joi", given that "ce" would be in more accordance with the > dictionary definition of simxu1 (a set)? I'm personally of the opinion > that the dictionary doesn't have to confine this x1 to one type or the > other; but if it's just that we don't have to be as much strict about > what makes for simxu1, why not "ju'e", which presumably is already > generic? > > Another concern is about KOhA involving "joi". "mi'o", for example: > > http://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/mi%27o > > My understanding: > > ci mi'o > =3D ci lo me mi joi do > =3D ci da poi me mi joi do > > My question: Does this "da" refer to lo gunma or lo se gunma? In other > words, is each of the three referents of "ci da" a group or an > individual? > > > mi'e tijlan mu'o > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --000e0cd2df22b612db04a80657f4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
=A0 I'm personally of the opinion that it should be ce= , but Xorxes likes to be expansive about gadri and sumti types...
=A0=A0= =A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 --gejyspa

On Thu, J= ul 14, 2011 at 7:30 AM, tijlan <jbotijlan@gmail.com> wrote:
Somebody brought the following Alice senten= ce to my attention:

=A0no=92i la ciftoldi ku joi la alis ze=92a simxu le nu smaji catlu (older= version)
=A0no'i la ciftoldi joi la .alis. ze'a simxu lo nu smaji catlu (ne= wer version)

Why "joi", given that "ce" would be in more accordance = with the
dictionary definition of simxu1 (a set)? I'm personally of the opinion<= br> that the dictionary doesn't have to confine this x1 to one type or the<= br> other; but if it's just that we don't have to be as much strict abo= ut
what makes for simxu1, why not "ju'e", which presumably is al= ready
generic?

Another concern is about KOhA involving "joi". "mi'o&quo= t;, for example:

=A0h= ttp://jbovlaste.lojban.org/dict/mi%27o

My understanding:

=A0ci mi'o
=A0=3D ci lo me mi joi do
=A0=3D ci da poi me mi joi do

My question: Does this "da" refer to lo gunma or lo se gunma? In = other
words, is each of the three referents of "ci da" a group or an individual?


mi'e tijlan mu'o

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