From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCd5vvwBBoEM3stZw@googlegroups.com Thu Jul 14 06:46:19 2011 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QhMF6-00081k-NL; Thu, 14 Jul 2011 06:46:19 -0700 Received: by gyg4 with SMTP id 4sf270682gyg.16 for ; Thu, 14 Jul 2011 06:46:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id :x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references:message-id:date:from:subject:to :in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=z4262Puz8GY0wtEsJkqCsndP5qRvmkRTh+WtOyhrjaQ=; b=Ws0JRqsC1XDyoy2GRIdi9hBzaje0jXliXwqWSwtOR5L9CBYDGlijNTyd5sjVJh4smW iBXnJ9Y4FmmUtej758XpQHahC92/CAhjq2paWilAxtrQd1QQJVp+xvwZaODvs4tonuyu ttA0kzAUs6iPMoPbnsQqxmwnlXAl0ZXJBaQWw= Received: by 10.90.144.1 with SMTP id r1mr341083agd.40.1310651165913; Thu, 14 Jul 2011 06:46:05 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.90.120.13 with SMTP id s13ls147034agc.7.gmail; Thu, 14 Jul 2011 06:46:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.194.2 with SMTP id r2mr841773anf.14.1310651161537; Thu, 14 Jul 2011 06:46:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.194.2 with SMTP id r2mr841772anf.14.1310651161517; Thu, 14 Jul 2011 06:46:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm21-vm0.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm21-vm0.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com [66.94.236.31]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id n19si230836ani.0.2011.07.14.06.46.01; Thu, 14 Jul 2011 06:46:01 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.236.31 as permitted sender) client-ip=66.94.236.31; Received: from [66.94.237.196] by nm21.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Jul 2011 13:46:01 -0000 Received: from [66.94.237.103] by tm7.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Jul 2011 13:46:01 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1008.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Jul 2011 13:46:01 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 194045.41579.bm@omp1008.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 85929 invoked by uid 60001); 14 Jul 2011 13:46:00 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: yXk.tPcVM1kOxNTqdnXzmNnDxlkbApybThDnh00gSqF3CTD ioIee5GXVIGnyRYsk_o_toZ5UbCYsqLK7zh8YQYLhDNwKM05W_pRervAlrJx sCfmCEc0G_ETPaKTX57o3q3bA_1ssiwnQr9UOGvc8QxZGflGmaBK_H7JriaR dTBGjUbIEu.hGuuWwZl3irAz3PHkQBzGWBIXTZb_OI_rMCzePsk4y53WrU.A LVzkNl.w3WYRvzeuh6yP8iyeehk4kJIymoiHAC3UeOJKA317Ihh.ZuMIHLnL wAufeCg6PsgBKhK3FSTkgZ2FOs4seUi8Rc4vzfS0nFmAghN2cLoEswMO9dmr h6Ylpvm2yNrTWvNpn12fj1GvaGvDD8V46C8sV5DSJwsv0rFmElPHynKl_SgQ PL6XWh3JHC_LLTFakh8j4HO2a9t7e.yRQ2cNqdmcn.oaNsKiR36AuITiLdJO H82OFD3p9lJpRTbFYhxKK4f90RchFoPojcQUBCBEOtkA9p_BuU6St5QJW3cM jGHAS4FUJNQYFZ1s7SLgZamrhP3XP9xirtBEYZo0deFgVAxAhLZBLWRR7d3b EDBa5XvTYIi.VF6c4M7ZJNpcJBISOrmH3SlZ0rYQMJMIR6DboUE_AoNK2u1x lnaFA Received: from [99.92.108.41] by web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 14 Jul 2011 06:46:00 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/572 YahooMailWebService/0.8.112.307740 References: <201107090028.31171.phma@phma.optus.nu> <4E1A7244.2080107@kli.org> <7C93C87E-FBFF-4C18-A7D2-525EBF6BB974@yahoo.com> <19C496C1-8E20-4FCE-A40C-2634CC26D4AC@yahoo.com> <55A3224A-D4C3-48D6-9114-692063F6D2B8@yahoo.com> <1310438893.88955.YahooMailRC@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1310579153.44690.YahooMailRC@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <7E28C065-4C52-4DE5-9487-6A780891EA26@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1310651160.55516.YahooMailRC@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 06:46:00 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: xu dai To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.236.31 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Well given the frequency of "I" and :you" and probably of "hear" and "askin= g".=20 and given the quirks of search engines, I am not too surprised at 50 millio= n=20 "hits". But you have come up with at least one case that actually used the= =20 expression, and I suppose there are many (not a million, though) more. I d= on't=20 recall having seen it before, but I immediately recognize it as the introdu= ctory=20 version of the medial "You may well be asking", used to introduce objection= s to=20 which I have answers. So, the idea here is that 'xu dai' introduces a ques= tion=20 which I want to answer (and, indeed, proceed to) but which I attribute to= =20 someone else -- whether or not they give a damn, indeed, even if they activ= ely=20 don't want to ask that question (and, especially, listen to that answer). = =20 Taking this back to 'dai' home ground, this amounts to my feeling an emotio= n=20 (etc,) and attributing it to someone else by claiming empathy, whether or n= ot=20 the other is feeling anything like that. This is a favorite parental ploy= =20 (often with faked emotions, even): the "Boy, are we having fun!" line pulle= d on=20 totally bored kids stuck in activities the parents wanted to do (or mistake= nly=20 thought the kids wanted to do) or that go on too long. But this is pretty= =20 clearly not what 'dai' is supposed to do and is even not a likely secondary= use=20 for it. So, it would seem that either 'xu dai' is totally separate from 'u= i=20 dai', with an accidental identity of one word or else it is not a legitimat= e use=20 of 'dai'. I find the latter more likely. ----- Original Message ---- From: Jorge Llamb=EDas To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Wed, July 13, 2011 9:53:27 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: xu dai On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 11:20 PM, John E. Clifford w= rote: > Well, aside from the fact that I have never heard anyone say that (to the= best=20 >of my knowledge), A Google search for "I hear you ask" gives 50,500,000 hits, so if people don't say it, it seems they at least do write it.. >what could it possibly mean? I'm surprised you're not familiar with the expression. > It looks like a factual claim, but admittedly is not. So it looks like a= =20 >certain style of psychobabble from some time ago -- along with "I hear wha= t=20 >you're saying" and the like. Surely that has no place in a logical langua= ge any=20 >more than in a reasonable culture. It might, I suppose, be an indirect wa= y to=20 >ask a question, but it seems foredoomed to fail in most cases, since the o= bvious=20 >response is "No, I didn't", not an answer. "No, I didn't" doesn't seem to work. If you are the kind of person who answers "yes" when asked if you have the time, your comment should be "But I didn't ask". The expected reaction is of course not to respond anything, but to wait for the speaker to answer the question they are sort of attributing to you. To take one example from the first page of hits: : http://cwdesigncompany.com/Blog1/2010/10/where-has-cindy-been-of-late-i-hea= r-you-ask/ > I just don't see how anyone else's mental states has anything to do with = my=20 >question and I don't see how my top level 'xu', however gussied up, can no= t be a=20 >question. It is a question, one which the speaker themself is about to answer. It's a way of setting up a topic, creating interest, etc. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at=20 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.