From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRC76_vwBBoExZWQDQ@googlegroups.com Thu Jul 14 06:57:30 2011 Received: from mail-gy0-f189.google.com ([209.85.160.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QhMPu-0007fZ-Ka; Thu, 14 Jul 2011 06:57:30 -0700 Received: by gyg4 with SMTP id 4sf280528gyg.16 for ; Thu, 14 Jul 2011 06:57:20 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id :x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references:message-id:date:from:subject:to :in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=kROsycyNWb1XBeW7opwuzLTqPNPq6MnJqkh2F/5CQrc=; b=Zck/+YohUowLFEzt2cQ6RhHiyDFKl5AEFskEvTfceVv3ibwteAFsRyLqYOCw8TIzNd HLgp2K44mtA9XjEYWtubwaJUUst0aqcHnG5TB0Ti+Memf0q97V7tUGdPwFufhUjJNi/l SmDVLi5vhdpWnYjZDLkFyVaaxMe+aGkV16/b0= Received: by 10.151.98.8 with SMTP id a8mr397807ybm.40.1310651835980; Thu, 14 Jul 2011 06:57:15 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.151.156.14 with SMTP id i14ls340057ybo.4.gmail; Thu, 14 Jul 2011 06:57:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.19.165 with SMTP id n25mr1107192yhn.106.1310651833689; Thu, 14 Jul 2011 06:57:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.19.165 with SMTP id n25mr1107191yhn.106.1310651833670; Thu, 14 Jul 2011 06:57:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm24-vm0.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm24-vm0.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com [66.94.236.143]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id d41si122162yhe.3.2011.07.14.06.57.13; Thu, 14 Jul 2011 06:57:13 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.236.143 as permitted sender) client-ip=66.94.236.143; Received: from [66.94.237.127] by nm24.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Jul 2011 13:57:13 -0000 Received: from [66.94.237.112] by tm2.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Jul 2011 13:57:13 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1017.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 14 Jul 2011 13:57:13 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 248355.12890.bm@omp1017.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 51017 invoked by uid 60001); 14 Jul 2011 13:57:13 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: CeQYpMMVM1mBPtOb4lfpFInV4O11I.Rrw2FFkJMzYq1rHvW Vru5H3K5bsLO_eRQ.ZJechvzCuEqovaAVF_0if4bKi4Vm33ssB.mzO2Nl23c ED0JspahgS.oAPOZFVju.uQCEcSom2SVeLJA2CfvEYM0pxV6WzxS3jYiXZDd IYIM.4IXxdGMzn0HhPPIMBIiTFdJu2odXJNehITUFXeIaT4XX143avYtI1Kh 4DN.VZ6tzs8MOzke9w0JUcRTHkpuC6RYdAJYYlki5ZZmFVvrKAFjpAhFGjqT P2uMh4ZSw66.BHqrCwqAZzgxm20uVJmOGHrvDQVnMRuljvcMB6fv83DY5mph mF9Nbbh6uC8DPc4DYJfEi7YiN88pcc2a.Hi0SE.IwacfohF_1S_zy_uDqjhR CQc9GY1tXnGntC1UPpLPJALcF3uG8gSyAqLRsZNGCpW6lPzE_xG0yEUGUmUo 5GoqIJIsN5UOEFSAyIdQ7_MQa9_Eq9o04TufMUbu7b086U_c_A_3FB1r.pSV 81c0q0QgwyEXhNihGNB_.u77mVI8OulzwrTKwHficbx5mYwtJpW07k.V3TGN xlMhQh0LFtbLkynYYz0RbUADpc5lgfGzS4Nofgn_aNRStvJ3YfyADgX14.gA ma3c- Received: from [99.92.108.41] by web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 14 Jul 2011 06:57:12 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/572 YahooMailWebService/0.8.112.307740 References: <201107090028.31171.phma@phma.optus.nu> <4E1A7244.2080107@kli.org> <7C93C87E-FBFF-4C18-A7D2-525EBF6BB974@yahoo.com> <19C496C1-8E20-4FCE-A40C-2634CC26D4AC@yahoo.com> <55A3224A-D4C3-48D6-9114-692063F6D2B8@yahoo.com> <1310438893.88955.YahooMailRC@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1310579153.44690.YahooMailRC@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <7E28C065-4C52-4DE5-9487-6A780891EA26@yahoo.com> <1310651160.55516.YahooMailRC@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1310651832.50812.YahooMailRC@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 06:57:12 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: xu dai To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: <1310651160.55516.YahooMailRC@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.236.143 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable OK! I got 10,200,000 hits, at least the first 600 of which were actual cas= es of=20 "I hear you asking", so maybe there are millions. ----- Original Message ---- From: John E Clifford To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Thu, July 14, 2011 8:46:00 AM Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: xu dai Well given the frequency of "I" and :you" and probably of "hear" and "askin= g".=20 and given the quirks of search engines, I am not too surprised at 50 millio= n=20 "hits". But you have come up with at least one case that actually used the= =20 expression, and I suppose there are many (not a million, though) more. I d= on't=20 recall having seen it before, but I immediately recognize it as the introdu= ctory=20 version of the medial "You may well be asking", used to introduce objection= s to=20 which I have answers. So, the idea here is that 'xu dai' introduces a ques= tion=20 which I want to answer (and, indeed, proceed to) but which I attribute to= =20 someone else -- whether or not they give a damn, indeed, even if they activ= ely=20 don't want to ask that question (and, especially, listen to that answer). = =20 Taking this back to 'dai' home ground, this amounts to my feeling an emotio= n=20 (etc,) and attributing it to someone else by claiming empathy, whether or n= ot=20 the other is feeling anything like that. This is a favorite parental ploy= =20 (often with faked emotions, even): the "Boy, are we having fun!" line pulle= d on=20 totally bored kids stuck in activities the parents wanted to do (or mistake= nly=20 thought the kids wanted to do) or that go on too long. But this is pretty= =20 clearly not what 'dai' is supposed to do and is even not a likely secondary= use=20 for it. So, it would seem that either 'xu dai' is totally separate from 'u= i=20 dai', with an accidental identity of one word or else it is not a legitimat= e use=20 of 'dai'. I find the latter more likely. ----- Original Message ---- From: Jorge Llamb=EDas To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Wed, July 13, 2011 9:53:27 PM Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: xu dai On Wed, Jul 13, 2011 at 11:20 PM, John E. Clifford w= rote: > Well, aside from the fact that I have never heard anyone say that (to the= best=20 >of my knowledge), A Google search for "I hear you ask" gives 50,500,000 hits, so if people don't say it, it seems they at least do write it.. >what could it possibly mean? I'm surprised you're not familiar with the expression. > It looks like a factual claim, but admittedly is not. So it looks like a= =20 >certain style of psychobabble from some time ago -- along with "I hear wha= t=20 >you're saying" and the like. Surely that has no place in a logical langua= ge any=20 > >more than in a reasonable culture. It might, I suppose, be an indirect wa= y to=20 >ask a question, but it seems foredoomed to fail in most cases, since the o= bvious=20 > >response is "No, I didn't", not an answer. "No, I didn't" doesn't seem to work. If you are the kind of person who answers "yes" when asked if you have the time, your comment should be "But I didn't ask". The expected reaction is of course not to respond anything, but to wait for the speaker to answer the question they are sort of attributing to you. To take one example from the first page of hits: : http://cwdesigncompany.com/Blog1/2010/10/where-has-cindy-been-of-late-i-hea= r-you-ask/ > I just don't see how anyone else's mental states has anything to do with = my=20 >question and I don't see how my top level 'xu', however gussied up, can no= t be a=20 > >question. It is a question, one which the speaker themself is about to answer. It's a way of setting up a topic, creating interest, etc. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at=20 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at=20 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.