From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBCmsfzwBBoEpyp5cg@googlegroups.com Thu Jul 14 09:26:29 2011 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QhOk6-0002ZS-2v; Thu, 14 Jul 2011 09:26:28 -0700 Received: by wwf27 with SMTP id 27sf925175wwf.16 for ; Thu, 14 Jul 2011 09:26:19 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=v615RimpLkDMi+qlBplA+hmiqleD/YULJGb5E9UehdQ=; b=YZC7XbAHsdtWdlZJq7/snP3vBhFnukYOngA7r3fghL2DRAmSh2QtMF4y0D2YMhVeoC T8L2thDko+r4CzgSm2+d85qv9nHJxWRTAtQBiN05R/IqUhQQ6SSRG6dN7GgyBatIB8Ox h8q6WamVQPWaFEv1s7qokmJDNqQ0VzwExkDeo= Received: by 10.216.78.147 with SMTP id g19mr2775515wee.15.1310660774658; Thu, 14 Jul 2011 09:26:14 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.227.168.207 with SMTP id v15ls1091479wby.3.gmail; Thu, 14 Jul 2011 09:26:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.204.16 with SMTP id fk16mr191791wbb.1.1310660773489; Thu, 14 Jul 2011 09:26:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.204.16 with SMTP id fk16mr191790wbb.1.1310660773460; Thu, 14 Jul 2011 09:26:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f53.google.com (mail-ww0-f53.google.com [74.125.82.53]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id fh14si407782wbb.0.2011.07.14.09.26.13 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 14 Jul 2011 09:26:13 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.53 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.53; Received: by mail-ww0-f53.google.com with SMTP id 26so454404wwf.10 for ; Thu, 14 Jul 2011 09:26:13 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.58.131 with SMTP id q3mr6533808wec.25.1310660773228; Thu, 14 Jul 2011 09:26:13 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.71.77 with HTTP; Thu, 14 Jul 2011 09:25:52 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1310659984.29791.YahooMailRC@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <201107090028.31171.phma@phma.optus.nu> <4E1A7244.2080107@kli.org> <7C93C87E-FBFF-4C18-A7D2-525EBF6BB974@yahoo.com> <19C496C1-8E20-4FCE-A40C-2634CC26D4AC@yahoo.com> <55A3224A-D4C3-48D6-9114-692063F6D2B8@yahoo.com> <1310438893.88955.YahooMailRC@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1310579153.44690.YahooMailRC@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <7E28C065-4C52-4DE5-9487-6A780891EA26@yahoo.com> <1310651160.55516.YahooMailRC@web81308.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1310659984.29791.YahooMailRC@web81307.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: Luke Bergen Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2011 12:25:52 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: xu dai To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.53 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=000e0ce0cce6cf309604a809fde2 --000e0ce0cce6cf309604a809fde2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 well, there is the middle ground. Just because something "goes beyond attitudinals" does not mean that it is "beyond UI*". "ga'iru'e" is acceptable but "koru'e".... what does that mean? Does it make sense to "modify" a non-ui with a UI? I think at that point you're doing the standard 'ol "mi nelci do .iu" thing where the UI isn't modifying the preceding word, it's just coloring it. On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 12:13 PM, John E Clifford wrote: > Yup! But I still only get a little over 10 m. Go figger! > However, assuming that xorxes' reading of 'xu dai' is licit and the target > usage is fairly common, I wonder about applying the same to other directive > language. What about 'ko dai'? Grammatical dissimilarities aside, the > function is essentially the same. To be sure, the obvious versions for this > usage "I hear you asking me to" (900k) and "I hear you telling me to" > (1.8m) are not as common and in many cases they are about real commands that > the speaker is commenting on (the first several entries are for a song with > a line like "I hear you asking me to be strong Cause relief is on the way" > or so), which I did not see in the question cases -- but then I didn't read > all that many. > Eventually we do get down to projected commands that I either want to do or > want to object to before they are actually raised. This seems to me even > more ridiculous than 'xu dai', but I don't see how to stop the slide once it > goes beyond attitudinals. > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Luke Bergen > *To:* lojban@googlegroups.com > *Sent:* Thu, July 14, 2011 8:58:02 AM > > *Subject:* Re: [lojban] Re: xu dai > > Actually, if you put a search in quotes it will search for that specific > expression and not just word1 AND word2 AND word3 etc... > So when xorxes said that he got 50,500,000 hits for "I hear you ask" (it's > up to 50,700,000 now for me) he means that that specific expression comes up > that many times not just pages containing all those words. > > And all results on the first page are close fits for the usage that xorxes > describes. > > On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 9:46 AM, John E Clifford wrote: > >> Well given the frequency of "I" and :you" and probably of "hear" and >> "asking". >> and given the quirks of search engines, I am not too surprised at 50 >> million >> "hits". But you have come up with at least one case that actually used >> the >> expression, and I suppose there are many (not a million, though) more. > > [snip] > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --000e0ce0cce6cf309604a809fde2 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable well, there is the middle ground. =A0Just because something "goes beyo= nd attitudinals" does not mean that it is "beyond UI*".
=
"ga'iru'e" is acceptable but "koru= 9;e".... what does that mean? =A0Does it make sense to "modify&qu= ot; a non-ui with a UI?

I think at that point you're doing the standard = 9;ol "mi nelci do .iu" thing where the UI isn't modifying the= =A0preceding=A0word, it's just coloring it.

On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 12:13 PM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wr= ote:
Yup! But I still only get a little over 10 m.=A0 Go figger!= =A0
However, assuming that xorxes' reading of 'xu dai' is l= icit and the target usage is fairly common, I wonder about applying the sam= e to other directive language.=A0 What about 'ko dai'?=A0 Grammatic= al dissimilarities aside, the function is essentially the same.=A0 To be su= re, the obvious versions for this usage=A0 "I hear you asking me to&qu= ot; (900k) and "I hear you telling me to" (1.8m) are not as commo= n and in many cases they are about real commands that the speaker is commen= ting on (the first several entries are for a song with a line like "I = hear you asking me to be strong Cause relief is on the way" or so), wh= ich I did not see in the question cases -- but then I didn't read all t= hat many.
Eventually we do get down to projected commands that I either want to do or want to object = to before they are actually raised.=A0 This seems to me even more ridiculou= s than 'xu dai', but I don't see how to stop the slide once it = goes beyond attitudinals.

= From: Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, July 14, 2011 8:58:02 AM=

Subject: Re: [lojban] Re= : xu dai

Actually, if you put a search in quotes it will search for that specific ex= pression and not just word1 AND word2 AND word3 etc...
So when xorxes s= aid that he got 50,500,000 hits for "I hear you ask" (it's up= to 50,700,000 now for me) he means that that specific expression comes up = that many times not just pages containing all those words.

And all results on the first page are close fits for th= e usage that xorxes describes.

On Thu, Ju= l 14, 2011 at 9:46 AM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yah= oo.com> wrote:
Well given the frequency of "I" an= d :you" and probably of "hear" and "asking".
and given the quirks of search engines, I am not too surprised at 50 millio= n
"hits". =A0But you have come up with at least one case that actua= lly used the
expression, and I suppose there are many (not a million, though) more.
=A0 [snip]=A0

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