From lojban+bncCNf8pM-bDBCe_P_wBBoEHM0ThQ@googlegroups.com Fri Jul 15 01:45:33 2011 Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Qhe1Z-0003uD-Kj; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 01:45:32 -0700 Received: by vws2 with SMTP id 2sf630416vws.16 for ; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 01:45:23 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=+tLw+3Nj34HgdjBiGXlaur7UFnk29k5owc2z06rPCVQ=; b=yk24VpBPQj6pEdGFn6jV+PsGX1Y7XcbFmak+R8ztyzBuJKdajZbMMsSrf+XsOIWEIZ jB/lImZPrsl/mjTpBspXTj5we+mRTKiKf4ECnYfpRRQ6iqbVAGAyBKJld5IF+j79PNAu PZahy3arwSrTypB7UKJSVf4zTlWjKlWU4ISDQ= Received: by 10.220.117.10 with SMTP id o10mr561341vcq.47.1310719518687; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 01:45:18 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.52.161.162 with SMTP id xt2ls162701vdb.3.gmail; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 01:45:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.187.132 with SMTP id fs4mr771750vdc.7.1310719516997; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 01:45:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.187.132 with SMTP id fs4mr771749vdc.7.1310719516985; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 01:45:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f173.google.com (mail-qy0-f173.google.com [209.85.216.173]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id v20si892323vdu.2.2011.07.15.01.45.16 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 15 Jul 2011 01:45:16 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.173 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.173; Received: by qyk10 with SMTP id 10so317108qyk.4 for ; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 01:45:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.122.85 with SMTP id k21mr2440211qcr.60.1310719516659; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 01:45:16 -0700 (PDT) Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.48.5 with HTTP; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 01:45:16 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 09:45:16 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] girzu gi'i gunma gi'i se gunma From: tijlan To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: paskios@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.173 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=paskios@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable 2011/7/14 Jorge Llamb=EDas : > On Thu, Jul 14, 2011 at 8:30 AM, tijlan wrote: >> =A0no'i la ciftoldi joi la .alis. ze'a simxu lo nu smaji catlu (newer ve= rsion) >> >> Why "joi", given that "ce" would be in more accordance with the >> dictionary definition of simxu1 (a set)? > > I don't use sets, since they don't really add much and they cause > trouble in some cases. For example, consider this other sentence from > Alice: > > .i lo re mei cu pilno sy lo nu kicne kei gi'e vregau lo bircidni sy > gi'e simxu lo ka tavla ga'u lo sy stedu > > If you tried to do that with sets, you'd have to jump through some > loops, since sets can't use stuff or rest their elbows on something. Yes, I agree. And that loosening is what I assumed might have been the case with your not having chosen "ce" in your revised translation. But what about the older version, which presumably was more guided by the pre-xorlo sumti-type-splitting grammar? Was that too your choice? >>I'm personally of the opinion >> that the dictionary doesn't have to confine this x1 to one type or the >> other; but if it's just that we don't have to be as much strict about >> what makes for simxu1, why not "ju'e", which presumably is already >> generic? > > I would use "jo'u" now, since I think "joi" and "jo'u" are basically > synonymous, but "joi" has the problem that some people interpret it as > introducing a new entity (a "mass") that counts separately from the > entities it is composed of. I couldn't really say how "ju'e" differs > from them either. Should at all "joi" and "jo'u" be distinguished according to the mixed / unmixed dichotomy prescribed by the dictionary, one example that would illustrate the difference for me is this pair: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fried_egg http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omelette Fried eggs are "whites jo'u yolks", while omelettes are "whites joi yolks", according to their relative easiness and difficulty of separating the two cooked components. But the criteria for such easiness / difficulty can well be subjective. It doesn't seem to ever have a rigorous logical basis. Whole milk, another example, could be said to be "cream joi zo'e", since removing all the cream from the finished product is not something that often occurs to most people; but such removal is trivially done by skimmed milk producers, for whom "cream jo'u zo'e" could be a more accustomed perception. Personal criteria and decisions for "joi", "jo'u" and "ce" can be wobbly throughout the course of Lojban learning, and community-unanimous interpretations for their usage seem unlikely. I opine: Just like we need a generic gadri, we need a generic non-logical connective. "ju'e", the vague connective, is an immediate candidate. But, from our experience with xorlo, we could as well think of expanding the role of "joi" that's one-syllable shorter than "ju'e". ("ce" might as well maintain its original role due to its logical & mathematical significances.) >> =A0ci mi'o >> =A0=3D ci lo me mi joi do >> =A0=3D ci da poi me mi joi do >> >> My question: Does this "da" refer to lo gunma or lo se gunma? In other >> words, is each of the three referents of "ci da" a group or an >> individual? > > As an aside, "ci da" does not have referents, since it's a quantifier > binding a free variable. I understand your question, though. Does the > domain over which "da" ranges contain a single member (one of those > "mass" things) or maybe at least three of those "mass" things, or does > it contain people (presumably at least three). I say no such things as > "masses" are involved, mass-talk is just a way of saying that the > reference to many is not to be taken distributively. I sense that would be the least problematic interpretation. I had "loi" in mind. If "da poi me mi joi do" meant "that which is a mass thing composed of mi and do", could that be represented as "loi me mi joi do"? If it could, I would then wonder whether or not "loi me mi joi do" would contradict the other expansion of "mi'o", "lo me mi joi do". And there would obviously be the inconsistency between what we would usually mean by "ci mi'o" (three people) and what it would expand into, "ci loi me mi joi do" (three groups of people). mu'o mi'e tijlan --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. 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