From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRCc24DxBBoE1uTGPg@googlegroups.com Fri Jul 15 05:08:11 2011 Received: from mail-qw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.216.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QhhBf-0002Ia-LD; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 05:08:11 -0700 Received: by qwh5 with SMTP id 5sf1118874qwh.16 for ; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 05:08:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=MJDociQJbG8/h7hoErF3R5fNjg2Zhw/SUb6GF9yciZk=; b=N19PE8QFj34OQ+/agZluPng0mp6bZ7lzi6OsoHgqJGwBUHHaVLSEPN4SWVI1HCD00W LTpN76sfhp1el2EStq9eYnk/X+Lw8emYVNXkMX7mDyZNF71NfO2et99wxrcy0edS0NoA CtQX5w4iey/0Sz1rXe4jdhlxGBoAKwNhjffDs= Received: by 10.224.206.202 with SMTP id fv10mr511556qab.4.1310731676787; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 05:07:56 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.224.201.196 with SMTP id fb4ls97352qab.7.gmail; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 05:07:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.200.5 with SMTP id eu5mr4017540qab.1.1310731675866; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 05:07:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.224.200.5 with SMTP id eu5mr4017539qab.1.1310731675856; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 05:07:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vx0-f181.google.com ([209.85.220.181]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ge31si1031206qcb.2.2011.07.15.05.07.55 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 15 Jul 2011 05:07:55 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.181 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.220.181; Received: by mail-vx0-f181.google.com with SMTP id 17so353279vxh.12 for ; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 05:07:55 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.112.70 with SMTP id io6mr3596525vdb.512.1310731675513; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 05:07:55 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.111.198 with HTTP; Fri, 15 Jul 2011 05:07:55 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 15 Jul 2011 09:07:55 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] girzu gi'i gunma gi'i se gunma From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.220.181 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Fri, Jul 15, 2011 at 5:45 AM, tijlan wrote: > > Yes, I agree. And that loosening is what I assumed might have been the > case with your not having chosen "ce" in your revised translation. But > what about the older version, which presumably was more guided by the > pre-xorlo sumti-type-splitting grammar? Was that too your choice? I abandoned sets years before xorlo, yes. I don't think sets do things "mutually". just as they don't use things, and they don't rest their elbows. So for me "simxu" means "x1 do x2 to one another", and not "x1 has members that do x2 to one another". I don't think the two meanings are really very compatible, although in general it is obvious which one someone is using. > Should at all "joi" and "jo'u" be distinguished according to the mixed > / unmixed dichotomy prescribed by the dictionary, one example that > would illustrate the difference for me is this pair: > > =A0http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fried_egg > =A0http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omelette > > Fried eggs are "whites jo'u yolks", while omelettes are "whites joi > yolks", according to their relative easiness and difficulty of > separating the two cooked components. If you are thinking of "ko'a jo'u ko'e" or "ko'a joi ko'e" counting as one thing, rather than as two things (assuming ko'a is one thing and ko'e is another one thing), then I don't agree. If you are thinking of a possible distinction between "lo broda jo'u brode" and "lo broda joi brode", then maybe. When you say "whites and yolks", I'm not sure if you are thinking "ko'a jo'u/joi ko'e" or "lo broda jo'u/joi brode". > I opine: Just like we need a generic gadri, we need a generic > non-logical connective. "ju'e", the vague connective, is an immediate > candidate. But, from our experience with xorlo, we could as well think > of expanding the role of "joi" that's one-syllable shorter than > "ju'e". ("ce" might as well maintain its original role due to its > logical & mathematical significances.) For me, the gadri equivalent of "lo" is "jo'u". It would be nice that it were "joi", if we could extract from it its harmful association with the word "mass", but that's a very hard battle. > I had "loi" in mind. If "da poi me mi joi do" meant "that which is a > mass thing composed of mi and do", could that be represented as "loi > me mi joi do"? I don't have a use for mass things, at least not ones created by "joi" and "loi" rather than by proper new entity creators like "lo gunma be". For me "loi" and "joi" only say that the many referents of the resulting sumti (not the *one* referent of the resulting sumti) are not to be taken distributively but they are to be taken together. But different people have different ideas about what "loi" and "joi" do. Some people think they refer to things called masses, such that you can count each mass separately and independently of its members. mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.