From lojban+bncCNf8pM-bDBDF8oXxBBoE5D_FXg@googlegroups.com Sat Jul 16 04:43:14 2011 Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Qi3H6-0002x7-HC; Sat, 16 Jul 2011 04:43:14 -0700 Received: by vws2 with SMTP id 2sf1199822vws.16 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2011 04:43:06 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=ApQY8VugQ+1rkfr5N2uTpyp8Mv8EvbnzpR0wtF/XwhM=; b=HX1lFOMhtRss3F+c9wupLCnJVj1gzqu7LPBJt5JTKo6c8iipocz6qyiXUfC3itOgCG qNlWSQuJa2rIAU4i8mTqcCCYh9HsvfNXinVivpHQ//PdnkmQp2Nsi1gUAjIfbL0iPmhO 8px7MAgI4BJuEdoxHuZgFSdJC9WO1APfJCczE= Received: by 10.220.247.198 with SMTP id md6mr805358vcb.25.1310816581579; Sat, 16 Jul 2011 04:43:01 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.52.161.199 with SMTP id xu7ls624941vdb.0.gmail; Sat, 16 Jul 2011 04:43:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.91.74 with SMTP id cc10mr924350vdb.37.1310816580760; Sat, 16 Jul 2011 04:43:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.91.74 with SMTP id cc10mr924349vdb.37.1310816580753; Sat, 16 Jul 2011 04:43:00 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f169.google.com (mail-qy0-f169.google.com [209.85.216.169]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id a10si1831117vdt.0.2011.07.16.04.43.00 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 16 Jul 2011 04:43:00 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.169 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.169; Received: by qyk32 with SMTP id 32so926088qyk.7 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2011 04:43:00 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.62.150 with SMTP id x22mr3393307qch.136.1310816580461; Sat, 16 Jul 2011 04:43:00 -0700 (PDT) Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.48.5 with HTTP; Sat, 16 Jul 2011 04:43:00 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1310579153.44690.YahooMailRC@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <201107090028.31171.phma@phma.optus.nu> <4E1A7244.2080107@kli.org> <7C93C87E-FBFF-4C18-A7D2-525EBF6BB974@yahoo.com> <19C496C1-8E20-4FCE-A40C-2634CC26D4AC@yahoo.com> <55A3224A-D4C3-48D6-9114-692063F6D2B8@yahoo.com> <1310438893.88955.YahooMailRC@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1310579153.44690.YahooMailRC@web81306.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 12:43:00 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: xu dai From: tijlan To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: paskios@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.169 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=paskios@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 13 July 2011 18:45, John E Clifford wrote: > We seem to be wading into a definitional swamp. =A0To stop before we get = in over > our heads, can we agree on the following. =A0Sentences can be used to per= form a > variety of speech acts. =A0These acts fall into several families, the mos= t > commonly mentioned being Informative, Directive, and Expressive. =A0Attit= udinals, > insofar as they are linguistic at all (a disputed point, but more likely = for > Lojban than generally) are Expressive. mirroring the inner states of the > speaker. =A0They may influence the direction of the conversation (as may = anything > said) but that is not their role. "mi stidi" and ".e'u" seem to be capable of imparting the same information, direction, and attitude; both can be equally Informative, Directive, and Expressive. They differ much in syntax but perhaps little in speech act type. If I change "mi stidi lo nu do klama" to ".e'u do klama", the syntax changes, but the type of speech act doesn't necessarily. If I said ".ui" while my actual inner state is ".uinai", would that be an invalid Lojban expression? If not, attitudinals aren't necessarily Expressive, mirroring the speaker's inner states, as you define it. >=A0Questions, on the other hand, are Directive: > they aim to influence someone else's behavior, in this case, come up with= an > answer, so the behavior to be influenced is linguistic, too. =A0That is, = questions > are intended to influence ths course of the conversation (though not, exc= ept > accidentally, non-linguistic behavior). =A0Questions may be accompanied b= y any > emotion whatsoever, curiosity being a common one, but probably not more c= ommon > than politeness and boredom. Right, questions aim to elicit an answer. And I consider that an attitude, a mental posture, on the part of the utterer. You ask a question, you express your attitude toward a propositional construct: xu do klama "You come" -- true or false? ma klama "X comes" -- what is X? Both are not only Directive but also likely Expressive, expressing the speaker's mental posture. And Expressive can be realized by UI or non-UI. > So, to get back to the original question, I can have an empathetic feelin= g > matching someone else's feeling and express my feeling (not someone else'= s) > using 'dai'. Suppose there are two athletes, ko'a and ko'e, preparing for the Olympic 100 meters. They are equally determined to win the gold medal. They go through the same physical and emotional hardship. Eventually, at the game, ko'e wins the gold medal, ko'a the silver. ko'e is evidentlly blissed out. ko'a distressfully cries, but ko'a can understand what is like to win the first prize and easily empathize with ko'e so as to say to ko'e ".ui cai dai". Whose actual feeling is more likely being represented by this: ko'a's or ko'e's? Would you say ko'a's 'matches' ko'e's? mu'o mi'e tijlan --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.