From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCT_obxBBoEw9I9aA@googlegroups.com Sat Jul 16 09:41:05 2011 Received: from mail-gx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Qi7vK-0006Oa-PT; Sat, 16 Jul 2011 09:41:05 -0700 Received: by gxk3 with SMTP id 3sf2344721gxk.16 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2011 09:40:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id :x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:message-id:date:from:subject:to:mime-version :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=YHN8ioaHg/gaBufzmuapaQKVt+yAgEBOQkFwusJfLEw=; b=jKlOcRuuVryVv8If8IpexHvgaR3UcPdydoJuyWj27F9XAZ5T0zeO06LyaWwGp+wx9Y YF4gpFHYhEGmLzKUqqYMZZJEkvyvMACrEREOlkIDZhH2MAcFhi1zpVmQLvoue8IMaJKG ZChC6+asiUthRUxmEkRP9U1/+8R+56dDvdqv4= Received: by 10.236.189.42 with SMTP id b30mr479071yhn.3.1310834451909; Sat, 16 Jul 2011 09:40:51 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.101.139.29 with SMTP id r29ls206479ann.2.gmail; Sat, 16 Jul 2011 09:40:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.225.9 with SMTP id x9mr190548ang.17.1310834450423; Sat, 16 Jul 2011 09:40:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.100.225.9 with SMTP id x9mr190547ang.17.1310834450407; Sat, 16 Jul 2011 09:40:50 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm9-vm0.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm9-vm0.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com [66.94.237.249]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id t25si2222675anp.1.2011.07.16.09.40.50; Sat, 16 Jul 2011 09:40:50 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.249 as permitted sender) client-ip=66.94.237.249; Received: from [66.94.237.200] by nm9.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Jul 2011 16:40:50 -0000 Received: from [66.94.237.124] by tm11.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Jul 2011 16:40:50 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1029.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 16 Jul 2011 16:40:49 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 997483.3249.bm@omp1029.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 44752 invoked by uid 60001); 16 Jul 2011 16:40:49 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: AuqIP7MVM1kI2iWCYsOuqlOW4Hthg1P8h6BREv6APlq5Uxd peaxMMIKehqw_gSVcMpFroLcCiaerxtvzd.LG1gI77Ar1VaUvAK.tm9GzjDj NGsUjZB622Pf1StjWHZpPrbwh0ZjsE4DOvDge46MZyMMC1rV.u_lkY4by.uZ 6c7tafgp0kWJtHk80G3DrRmwqWJupU6BBesJRVE6.7VOJce2.QzmWy.OznXn Xb7C1v9mIv1Rad.Mv_W_VjTnZ2ZNXeDXi.wR7E0.Wl2eIINm15XKAlZ9jQUG 7AN.iIq7QjkKionY5_mLPYf9ijPYHNMU5jbNQn.bUOR6dwO3PzYD_9fnTO81 oosTlHpP9jGkCh9i69x.6RIvwNxlt_ebjg_3S19SIMQPkhMFuZjrpxpGxb2K NHBTjxndZkWqhsuVo3XiKenRpSqTJ76IfatMU31zF8U0LVqyHubt910liW8f sPyP3uHYB5Z8yNqqGHAGjL7LHsL1pbVKwI9.Pax7WcA-- Received: from [99.92.108.41] by web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Sat, 16 Jul 2011 09:40:49 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/572 YahooMailWebService/0.8.112.307740 Message-ID: <1310834449.33385.YahooMailRC@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 09:40:49 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: xu dai To: lojban@googlegroups.com MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.249 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Not sure whether this is terminological or conceptual, but things don't square up with my understanding. 'mi stidi lo nu do klama' and 'e'u do klama' are not equally Informative speech acts, since 'e'u' makes the following sentence not informative but a suggestion, a Directive speech act. To be sure, I can infer that you have a suggestion from the fact that you actually propose one, but proposing it isn't saying that you have one, which is what 'mi stidi ... ' does. And, of course, it is usually OK to infer from you stating 'mi stidi ...' that you are actually making that suggestion, though 'mi stidi ...' doesn't actually do that. Among the many things that hold for 'mi stidi...' is that it is true or false, neither of which applies to 'e'u ...' though they may have many other properties in common -- mostly those related to the feasibility of the suggestion. Neither of these is, by the way, Expressive of anything. The function of Expressive speech acts is to express feeling and the like. But, just as one can misinform using an Informative speech act, one can simulate a feeling one does not have in an Expressive speech act. The syntactical legitimacy of the form does not rely on its accuracy. I find the notion that asking a question is Expressive a little hard to follow: what is it expressing? Surely not curiosity on the part of the speaker -- or even interest; there are far too many bureaucrats asking too many questions just top fill out a form for that to be plausible. Again, we may, in some cases, infer an interest or curiosity (possibly wrongly) from the fact that someone asks a question, but that is in our inference, not in the question itself. The questions function is to summon up an answer (period). Aiming to elicit an answer hardly seems in line with feeling pain or pleasure or other central UI concepts (though perhaps related to some of the function-changing UI, which are also not Expressive, by and large). In the case of the racers, ko'e (winner) and ko'a (second) , ko'a's 'ui cai dai' presents itself as an expression of ko'a's empathetic feeling for ko'e's triumph (that he may be feeling no such thing is beside the point) ko'e is feeling elated, ko'a is (presented as) feeling an empathetic elation for ko'e. Expressive is always the expression of the speaker's feeling (how could you express my feeling? consider what "express" means) But 'dai' allows that I may feel something akin to what someone else feels when presented with the other person's expressions of their feeling. Of course, I may also feel something quite different (maybe at the same time): hatred, jealousy, sympathy and so on. ----- Original Message ---- From: tijlan To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Sat, July 16, 2011 6:43:00 AM Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: xu dai On 13 July 2011 18:45, John E Clifford wrote: > We seem to be wading into a definitional swamp. To stop before we get in over > our heads, can we agree on the following. Sentences can be used to perform a > variety of speech acts. These acts fall into several families, the most > commonly mentioned being Informative, Directive, and Expressive. Attitudinals, > insofar as they are linguistic at all (a disputed point, but more likely for > Lojban than generally) are Expressive. mirroring the inner states of the > speaker. They may influence the direction of the conversation (as may anything > said) but that is not their role. "mi stidi" and ".e'u" seem to be capable of imparting the same information, direction, and attitude; both can be equally Informative, Directive, and Expressive. They differ much in syntax but perhaps little in speech act type. If I change "mi stidi lo nu do klama" to ".e'u do klama", the syntax changes, but the type of speech act doesn't necessarily. If I said ".ui" while my actual inner state is ".uinai", would that be an invalid Lojban expression? If not, attitudinals aren't necessarily Expressive, mirroring the speaker's inner states, as you define it. > Questions, on the other hand, are Directive: > they aim to influence someone else's behavior, in this case, come up with an > answer, so the behavior to be influenced is linguistic, too. That is, >questions > are intended to influence ths course of the conversation (though not, except > accidentally, non-linguistic behavior). Questions may be accompanied by any > emotion whatsoever, curiosity being a common one, but probably not more common > than politeness and boredom. Right, questions aim to elicit an answer. And I consider that an attitude, a mental posture, on the part of the utterer. You ask a question, you express your attitude toward a propositional construct: xu do klama "You come" -- true or false? ma klama "X comes" -- what is X? Both are not only Directive but also likely Expressive, expressing the speaker's mental posture. And Expressive can be realized by UI or non-UI. > So, to get back to the original question, I can have an empathetic feeling > matching someone else's feeling and express my feeling (not someone else's) > using 'dai'. Suppose there are two athletes, ko'a and ko'e, preparing for the Olympic 100 meters. They are equally determined to win the gold medal. They go through the same physical and emotional hardship. Eventually, at the game, ko'e wins the gold medal, ko'a the silver. ko'e is evidentlly blissed out. ko'a distressfully cries, but ko'a can understand what is like to win the first prize and easily empathize with ko'e so as to say to ko'e ".ui cai dai". Whose actual feeling is more likely being represented by this: ko'a's or ko'e's? Would you say ko'a's 'matches' ko'e's? mu'o mi'e tijlan -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.