From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBDonL3wBBoEZzdAmA@googlegroups.com Sat Jul 02 09:59:39 2011 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Qd3XY-0008Q6-VY; Sat, 02 Jul 2011 09:59:38 -0700 Received: by wwf27 with SMTP id 27sf7359209wwf.16 for ; Sat, 02 Jul 2011 09:59:26 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=O5S1ATYKUM3KAIF7T0wyKvZ8eqrWR0uRuuiPI8H+ZAs=; b=aNoNY96Zv7Fspil13anHFIrudE84XymGZcRriw7EssX/ubdneHLI3IBGps5Y7DecS0 IP5sfgyE7I38H+trMQlBll5oJSm/TjpyEfUF73qUscMxKMyaXq2mmiWOohk6YwItU9AO D1kwuczdD66rUCVYQWydZvEti16mCnAfrjvTM= Received: by 10.216.65.201 with SMTP id f51mr1602359wed.1.1309625960999; Sat, 02 Jul 2011 09:59:20 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.227.106.37 with SMTP id v37ls2064167wbo.1.gmail; Sat, 02 Jul 2011 09:59:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.128.149 with SMTP id k21mr285162wbs.8.1309625957042; Sat, 02 Jul 2011 09:59:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.128.149 with SMTP id k21mr285161wbs.8.1309625957008; Sat, 02 Jul 2011 09:59:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f51.google.com (mail-ww0-f51.google.com [74.125.82.51]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id l4si4604454wbo.3.2011.07.02.09.59.16 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 02 Jul 2011 09:59:16 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.51 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.51; Received: by wwj26 with SMTP id 26so3800277wwj.8 for ; Sat, 02 Jul 2011 09:59:16 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.235.95 with SMTP id t73mr3857002weq.10.1309625956718; Sat, 02 Jul 2011 09:59:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.71.77 with HTTP; Sat, 2 Jul 2011 09:59:16 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.71.77 with HTTP; Sat, 2 Jul 2011 09:59:16 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <20110702023512.GF8547@digitalkingdom.org> <20110702061357.GH8547@digitalkingdom.org> Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2011 12:59:16 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Is it a lie? From: Luke Bergen To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.51 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015176f1a64f0582e04a7190d83 --0015176f1a64f0582e04a7190d83 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I disagree. My wife and I jokingly lie to each other all the time. Her: did you eat the last piece of cake? Me: ~looks around shadily~ uhhh... no? I know she won't be deceived, and I don't actually intend to deceive. I'm intentionally telling an untruth in a way that's so bad that I'm effectivel= y comminicating to her that I have eaten the cake. But the word that I said WAS untrue. Furthermore, if I believe that the sky is pink but I say "the sky is blue" then even though I have said a true expression, I would still call that a lie. These are why I understand a lie to be a statement that describes reality a= s being different from the reality that the speaker believes to be true. Intent to deceive isn't important and actual truthiness of the statement doesn't matter either. On Jul 2, 2011 12:45 PM, "Robin Turner" wrote: > A false statement is not necessarily a lie; what makes it a lie is the > intent to deceive. ("Lie" is almost as celebrated a case in semantics > as "bachelor".) So no word could make something a lie or not, unless > we have a (self-defeating) attitudinal that says "lying" ;-) > > robin.tr > > On 2 July 2011 09:16, Jonathan Jones wrote: >> Well, lying is deceptive, but it's not necessarily asshole-ish. :D >> >> to pu benji di'u fo lo mi me la.android. fonxa toi >> >> mu'o mi'e.aionys. >> >> On Jul 2, 2011 12:13 AM, "Robin Lee Powell" >> wrote: >> >> I don't see a significant distinction between "you are lying" and >> "you are being a deceptive asshole". >> >> -Robin >> >> On Sat, Jul 02, 2011 at 01:59:30AM -0400, Alex Rozenshteyn wrote: >>> That feels like a slippery slop... >> >> -- >> >> http://singinst.org/ : Our last, best hope for a fantastic future. >> Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/):... >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> > > > > -- > "Mix a little foolishness with your serious plans; it is lovely to be > silly at the right moment." - Horace > > Robin Turner > IDMYO > Bilkent =DCniversitesi > Ankara, Turkey > > http://www.bilkent.edu.tr/~robin > http://solri.livejournal.com > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --0015176f1a64f0582e04a7190d83 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

I disagree. My wife and I jokingly lie to each other all the time.=A0 Her: did you eat the last piece of cake?
Me:=A0 ~looks around shadily~ uhhh... no?

I know she won't be deceived, and I don't actually intend to dec= eive.=A0 I'm intentionally telling an untruth in a way that's so ba= d that I'm effectively comminicating to her that I have eaten the cake.= But the word that I said WAS untrue.

Furthermore, if I believe that the sky is pink but I say "the sky i= s blue" then even though I have said a true expression, I would still = call that a lie.

These are why I understand a lie to be a statement that describes realit= y as being different from the reality that the speaker believes to be true.= =A0 Intent to deceive isn't important and actual truthiness of the stat= ement doesn't matter either.

On Jul 2, 2011 12:45 PM, "Robin Turner"= ; <boldsirrobin@gmail.com&= gt; wrote:
> A false statement is not necessaril= y a lie; what makes it a lie is the
> intent to deceive. ("Lie" is almost as celebrated a case in = semantics
> as "bachelor".) So no word could make something= a lie or not, unless
> we have a (self-defeating) attitudinal that s= ays "lying" ;-)
>
> robin.tr
>
> On = 2 July 2011 09:16, Jonathan Jones <= eyeonus@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Well, lying is deceptive, but = it's not necessarily asshole-ish. :D
>>
>> to pu benji di'u fo lo mi me la.android. fonxa toi=
>>
>> mu'o mi'e.aionys.
>>
>> = On Jul 2, 2011 12:13 AM, "Robin Lee Powell" <rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org>
>> wrote:
>>
>> I don't see a significant disti= nction between "you are lying" and
>> "you are bein= g a deceptive asshole".
>>
>> -Robin
>>
>> On Sat, Jul 02, 2011 at 01:59:30AM -0400, Alex Rozenshteyn wrote:<= br>>>> That feels like a slippery slop...
>>
>> = --
>>
>> http://singinst= .org/ : Our last, best hope for a fantastic future.
>> Lojban (http://www.lojban.or= g/):...
>>
>> --
>> You received this messag= e because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "lojban&= quot; group.
>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from = this group, send email to
>> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit this group at
>> http://groups.google.com/group/lo= jban?hl=3Den.
>>
>
>
>
> --
>= ; "Mix a little foolishness with your serious plans; it is lovely to b= e
> silly at the right moment." - Horace
>
> Robin Turne= r
> IDMYO
> Bilkent =DCniversitesi
> Ankara, Turkey
&g= t;
> http://www.bilkent= .edu.tr/~robin
> http://solri.livejournal.com<= /a>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are = subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
> To post t= o this group, send email to lojb= an@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>

--
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