From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRCU1YfxBBoElMxWUQ@googlegroups.com Sat Jul 16 14:31:33 2011 Received: from mail-vx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.220.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QiCSR-00070Q-10; Sat, 16 Jul 2011 14:31:33 -0700 Received: by vxg38 with SMTP id 38sf1426734vxg.16 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2011 14:31:25 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=AwxseMhlvy6tY3KKoSkFqUyx1QgzxtH4DosTcdYabHI=; b=dpIIgWA8Txyfc7kIiD/7QwYpgwKOVvCTnhRKvc1mpRYufXaCjzxdoV+03Wz6qBiR0L yZHrX5+LIqGfkGR+5TVqRycAW/bWRUky1B6kWmW0SKoLoWbh1KAePl6A3rZSSdPQ44r8 u0g6jb7OPKunXialbvwRZhWVyV+pSvmkWJvpo= Received: by 10.220.176.138 with SMTP id be10mr872606vcb.27.1310845588102; Sat, 16 Jul 2011 12:46:28 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.52.161.199 with SMTP id xu7ls723663vdb.0.gmail; Sat, 16 Jul 2011 12:46:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.23.43 with SMTP id j11mr945665vdf.18.1310845587111; Sat, 16 Jul 2011 12:46:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.23.43 with SMTP id j11mr945664vdf.18.1310845587104; Sat, 16 Jul 2011 12:46:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vw0-f49.google.com (mail-vw0-f49.google.com [209.85.212.49]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id dp3si2089354vdb.3.2011.07.16.12.46.27 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 16 Jul 2011 12:46:27 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.49 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.49; Received: by vws8 with SMTP id 8so1876550vws.36 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2011 12:46:27 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.107.38 with SMTP id gz6mr4744284vdb.445.1310845586862; Sat, 16 Jul 2011 12:46:26 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.111.198 with HTTP; Sat, 16 Jul 2011 12:46:26 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1310834449.33385.YahooMailRC@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <1310834449.33385.YahooMailRC@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 16:46:26 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: xu dai From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.49 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 1:40 PM, John E Clifford wro= te: > Not sure whether this is terminological or conceptual, but things don't s= quare > up with my understanding. =A0'mi stidi lo nu do klama' and 'e'u do klama'= are not > equally Informative speech acts, since 'e'u' makes the following sentence= not > informative but a suggestion, a Directive speech act. Part of the problem here seems to be that we are comparing apples with oran= ges. "e'u do klama" is indeed a suggestion, but we can't be sure whether "mi stidi lo nu do klama" is an assertion or something else, since it doesn't have an explicit speech act marker. Granted that we do usually take sentences that are unmarked for speech act to be assertions, but context and content may suggest otherwise. "ju'a mi stidi lo nu do klama" is an assertion, but "ca'e mi stidi lo nu do klama", "I hereby suggest that you go" I would say is closer to a suggestion than to an assertion. (What is it? A "declaration"?) So while it's true that "ju'a" is the most common speech act indicator assumed in the absence of an explicit one, I suspect that for some type of predicates in the first person present (like mi stidi) something like "ca'e" is more often the intended speech act, > Neither of these is, by the way, Expressive of anything. > The function of Expressive speech acts is to express feeling and the like= . =A0But, > just as one can misinform using an Informative speech act, one can simula= te a > feeling one does not have in an Expressive speech act. =A0The syntactical > legitimacy of the form does not rely on its accuracy. > I find the notion that asking a question is Expressive a little hard to f= ollow: > what is it expressing? I agree that a question is not an expressive speech act. What I don't share is your implied hypothesis that "dai" only makes sense as a modifier of expressive speech acts. It has an obvious generalization to other types of speech acts, one that you described yourself, so what is it that you find problematic about it? It simply indicates that the speaker is performing a given speech act putting themselves in the shoes of someone else. Why restrict its scope to expressive speech acts only? mu'o mi'e xorxes --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.