From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRD5p4jxBBoEXrhFOg@googlegroups.com Sat Jul 16 15:43:18 2011 Received: from mail-vx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.220.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QiDZs-0000b6-4n; Sat, 16 Jul 2011 15:43:18 -0700 Received: by vxg38 with SMTP id 38sf1449245vxg.16 for ; Sat, 16 Jul 2011 15:43:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-yahoo-smtp:x-ymail-osg :x-yahoo-newman-property:references:in-reply-to :x-apple-yahoo-original-message-folder:mime-version:message-id :x-mailer:from:x-apple-yahoo-replied-msgid:subject:date:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=7JCJvUg6VmYYXsw4ufjkGf0wkow/em/YLxzTdo1bqz0=; b=qKg/uuJkBMJE4uAQbibbvWU4ziAwjb8O6aYVTe4BAkRrnKSpAx8OIYWoXFCElcsskq jRrJ0hcUu8R+OBRG60/t9Jlfjfu1/2KVt74TnYjmhCu/Ul0kr2QNU31ZZpB/0pFP27pJ 8MkRJHAfJUz4I64qBhl8PKbiviFtDQp94y0Es= Received: by 10.220.3.133 with SMTP id 5mr862269vcn.1.1310856185340; Sat, 16 Jul 2011 15:43:05 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.52.96.197 with SMTP id du5ls755116vdb.1.gmail; Sat, 16 Jul 2011 15:43:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.66.35 with SMTP id c3mr433491vdt.43.1310856184236; Sat, 16 Jul 2011 15:43:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.66.35 with SMTP id c3mr433490vdt.43.1310856184224; Sat, 16 Jul 2011 15:43:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtp106-mob.biz.mail.ac4.yahoo.com (smtp106-mob.biz.mail.ac4.yahoo.com [76.13.13.227]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id dp3si2180814vdb.3.2011.07.16.15.43.04; Sat, 16 Jul 2011 15:43:04 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 76.13.13.227 as permitted sender) client-ip=76.13.13.227; Received: (qmail 88948 invoked from network); 16 Jul 2011 22:43:03 -0000 Received: from [192.168.1.68] (kali9putra@99.92.108.41 with xymcookie) by smtp106-mob.biz.mail.ac4.yahoo.com with SMTP; 16 Jul 2011 15:43:03 -0700 PDT X-Yahoo-SMTP: xvGyF4GswBCIFKGaxf5wSjlg3RF108g- X-YMail-OSG: 1EUXPc8VM1lNRvoVw0tmdEnVatH7D0aa0wZwdYpSJPPnDeP qkyebmfbM1CKqnFNP0H4cyRGGyszWa4igATKUu1O_y7VLi3Ga.3gxaBHc1TY UX19mvXRkNpKVhmY_QTBsxCRS6cIulJXcjb9zYqTDb78f01L2j9G910Oqn1B POcjYcrNNwkoUjMv9zLy.TLa0t5vUpa7qPWuw50_ELA4P0J9.u_8BYPoUP1w Q88gi.Ilyij53dc.hA4IHp.N75ZQtNqi1tAR3.CS5BUIP.Pc3oQLvweGLb2V zxRluAuGecmJBUGQ973ruRZOd3S73hlDCjf_7xtlNiMLcGqvvzo2xeN6lqAk g9YP6H7wX3YnachTPdRGum8pBH130xLm1L1EnI4fOOWqcVeB169F5T60FD2e 8xwYvEqWW3BpJqbotsMuVDymoLIhmF0FVz5dRO0mkQsWREcN1Q5WdmSskfuT 7BXj3j6a8hQ-- X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 References: <1310834449.33385.YahooMailRC@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: X-Apple-Yahoo-Original-Message-Folder: AAlojbanery Mime-Version: 1.0 (iPad Mail 8G4) Message-Id: <380A4C35-EF1C-4F52-ADBF-324B57D9DDEF@yahoo.com> X-Mailer: iPad Mail (8G4) From: "John E. Clifford" X-Apple-Yahoo-Replied-Msgid: 1_9326999_AHfHjkQAAKmDTiHqmgmPlgFwPZM Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: xu dai Date: Sat, 16 Jul 2011 18:49:45 -0400 To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 76.13.13.227 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable We comeback to the question of Lojban being a logical language and what tha= t means. While I think we have wandered unconsciously pretty far from the = original meaning, I don't see any reason to deliberately and consciously do= so. And one part of all that is to keep one grammatical distinction overt= (or at least clearly marked). Now it would be a possible one -- but one u= niting slippage, I think, to allow that for certain predicate in certain co= ntexts, when unmarked, to indicate a different speech act from the usual on= e (informative). We do it all the time in English, of course, and it creat= es countless problems for logical analysis. Better to stick to the simple = rule, hard though it seems to be for people to grasp or follow (why pursue = a language which is supposed to change the way you think and then changes i= t back so that it works like one you already have?) Did I really describe a generalization for 'dai'? Other than to point out = how ridiculous it was for any serious purpose (I have a logician's contempt= for rhetoric)? 'e'u dai do klama' is a suggestion, if at all, that I am m= aking (no one else has said it) and trying to pass the blame to someone els= e is mere chicanery. In particular, your suggesting that you come seems in= herently a vapid speech act, unless you sense an objection to it. So, my m= aking the suggestion that you come but projecting it on you is either to st= ate those objections or to rebut them. But, as with the question case, it = is ultimately my speech act, not yours (not even one you intended, if the q= uestion cases are anything to go by). Sent from my iPad On Jul 16, 2011, at 15:46, Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote: > On Sat, Jul 16, 2011 at 1:40 PM, John E Clifford w= rote: >> Not sure whether this is terminological or conceptual, but things don't = square >> up with my understanding. 'mi stidi lo nu do klama' and 'e'u do klama' = are not >> equally Informative speech acts, since 'e'u' makes the following sentenc= e not >> informative but a suggestion, a Directive speech act. >=20 > Part of the problem here seems to be that we are comparing apples with or= anges. >=20 > "e'u do klama" is indeed a suggestion, but we can't be sure whether > "mi stidi lo nu do klama" is an assertion or something else, since it > doesn't have an explicit speech act marker. Granted that we do usually > take sentences that are unmarked for speech act to be assertions, but > context and content may suggest otherwise. "ju'a mi stidi lo nu do > klama" is an assertion, but "ca'e mi stidi lo nu do klama", "I hereby > suggest that you go" I would say is closer to a suggestion than to an > assertion. (What is it? A "declaration"?) So while it's true that > "ju'a" is the most common speech act indicator assumed in the absence > of an explicit one, I suspect that for some type of predicates in the > first person present (like mi stidi) something like "ca'e" is more > often the intended speech act, >=20 >> Neither of these is, by the way, Expressive of anything. >> The function of Expressive speech acts is to express feeling and the lik= e. But, >> just as one can misinform using an Informative speech act, one can simul= ate a >> feeling one does not have in an Expressive speech act. The syntactical >> legitimacy of the form does not rely on its accuracy. >> I find the notion that asking a question is Expressive a little hard to = follow: >> what is it expressing? >=20 > I agree that a question is not an expressive speech act. >=20 > What I don't share is your implied hypothesis that "dai" only makes > sense as a modifier of expressive speech acts. It has an obvious > generalization to other types of speech acts, one that you described > yourself, so what is it that you find problematic about it? It simply > indicates that the speaker is performing a given speech act putting > themselves in the shoes of someone else. Why restrict its scope to > expressive speech acts only? >=20 > mu'o mi'e xorxes >=20 > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojb= an?hl=3Den. >=20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.