From lojban+bncCNuStaWoDxCqwL3wBBoE4CTLMA@googlegroups.com Sat Jul 02 11:15:22 2011 Received: from mail-ww0-f61.google.com ([74.125.82.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Qd4is-0006Hv-1Y; Sat, 02 Jul 2011 11:15:22 -0700 Received: by wwf27 with SMTP id 27sf7443393wwf.16 for ; Sat, 02 Jul 2011 11:15:11 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:message-id:date:from:user-agent :mime-version:to:subject:references:in-reply-to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=c2hzzLsCttQw4UqPa5/pOIyiAvYfF2miyRFDh2Xm0dM=; b=euB/SWJC8NixIQ1x/U3hzc7xyuKetMKDQynP3GH8kLumvrDTbteNxMqRem4skeTb/j P1mTQqS3qehUVZYhRgff1Zgs3dktbotzFZgz3+9H0wrKcXNRZiiPSqSukckkHNRFgIiL +UW1Zm2cUrJWM6F9FzPXAZZl2hCboFP59XIYI= Received: by 10.216.230.142 with SMTP id j14mr890695weq.28.1309630506555; Sat, 02 Jul 2011 11:15:06 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.227.9.96 with SMTP id k32ls2084093wbk.2.gmail; Sat, 02 Jul 2011 11:15:05 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.7.19 with SMTP id b19mr330467wbb.4.1309630504906; Sat, 02 Jul 2011 11:15:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.7.19 with SMTP id b19mr330466wbb.4.1309630504886; Sat, 02 Jul 2011 11:15:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f43.google.com (mail-ww0-f43.google.com [74.125.82.43]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id l4si4662323wbo.3.2011.07.02.11.15.04 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 02 Jul 2011 11:15:04 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.43 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.43; Received: by wwi18 with SMTP id 18so3421970wwi.24 for ; Sat, 02 Jul 2011 11:15:04 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.159.141 with SMTP id j13mr4070246wbx.108.1309630503471; Sat, 02 Jul 2011 11:15:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.71] (87-194-76-177.bethere.co.uk [87.194.76.177]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id fp5sm1931344wbb.32.2011.07.02.11.15.01 (version=SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 02 Jul 2011 11:15:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <4E0F5FF1.3000408@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 02 Jul 2011 19:14:09 +0100 From: And Rosta User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 6.1; en-US; rv:1.9.2.18) Gecko/20110616 Thunderbird/3.1.11 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: lojban@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [lojban] Is it a lie? References: <20110702023512.GF8547@digitalkingdom.org> <20110702061357.GH8547@digitalkingdom.org> In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: and.rosta@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of and.rosta@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.43 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=and.rosta@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Luke Bergen, On 02/07/2011 17:59: > I disagree. Before disagreeing, or in order to disagree more intelligently, read Colema= n & Kay 1981 "Prototype semantics and the English word _lie_", . In a nutshell: in prototype models of semantics, category membership (such = as being a lie) is a matter of degree. The extent to which something involv= es intent to deceive affects the extent to which it counts as a lie. ---And. >My wife and I jokingly lie to each other all the time. > Her: did you eat the last piece of cake? > Me: ~looks around shadily~ uhhh... no? > > I know she won't be deceived, and I don't actually intend to deceive. I'= m intentionally telling an untruth in a way that's so bad that I'm effectiv= ely comminicating to her that I have eaten the cake. But the word that I sa= id WAS untrue. > > Furthermore, if I believe that the sky is pink but I say "the sky is blue= " then even though I have said a true expression, I would still call that a= lie. > > These are why I understand a lie to be a statement that describes reality= as being different from the reality that the speaker believes to be true. = Intent to deceive isn't important and actual truthiness of the statement d= oesn't matter either. > > On Jul 2, 2011 12:45 PM, "Robin Turner" > wrote: > > A false statement is not necessarily a lie; what makes it a lie is the > > intent to deceive. ("Lie" is almost as celebrated a case in semantics > > as "bachelor".) So no word could make something a lie or not, unless > > we have a (self-defeating) attitudinal that says "lying" ;-) > > > > robin.tr > > > > On 2 July 2011 09:16, Jonathan Jones > wrote: > >> Well, lying is deceptive, but it's not necessarily asshole-ish. :D > >> > >> to pu benji di'u fo lo mi me la.android. fonxa toi > >> > >> mu'o mi'e.aionys. > >> > >> On Jul 2, 2011 12:13 AM, "Robin Lee Powell" > > >> wrote: > >> > >> I don't see a significant distinction between "you are lying" and > >> "you are being a deceptive asshole". > >> > >> -Robin > >> > >> On Sat, Jul 02, 2011 at 01:59:30AM -0400, Alex Rozenshteyn wrote: > >>> That feels like a slippery slop... > >> > >> -- > >> > >> http://singinst.org/ : Our last, best hope for a fantastic future. > >> Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/):... > >> > >> -- > >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gr= oups > >> "lojban" group. > >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com . > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com . > >> For more options, visit this group at > >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > >> > > > > > > > > -- > > "Mix a little foolishness with your serious plans; it is lovely to be > > silly at the right moment." - Horace > > > > Robin Turner > > IDMYO > > Bilkent =DCniversitesi > > Ankara, Turkey > > > > http://www.bilkent.edu.tr/~robin > > http://solri.livejournal.com > > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Gro= ups "lojban" group. > > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com . > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googl= egroups.com . > > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/l= ojban?hl=3Den. > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojb= an?hl=3Den. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.