From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBCuw73wBBoELCz3VA@googlegroups.com Sat Jul 02 11:21:50 2011 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Qd4p8-0006Rs-3P; Sat, 02 Jul 2011 11:21:50 -0700 Received: by wyh13 with SMTP id 13sf7370673wyh.16 for ; Sat, 02 Jul 2011 11:21:39 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=+pQuZnSfmL+rT1YWAjs1bWDSSzW3YG76DQK7iN7xQxM=; b=xA0SXs6buDvckdrK+ha/5/guZMb7ZCFbRr1gBgIdYzTvLsEQhTxZyuy0WktlHS1QMB 0wv0uX1W1rM0gOFJEF3t1G7bOwMMdxsO1zUQukMysDdNWYY0zhXqHBpIQDMtaOPdWZrW vfoywG7Hsh+GkO7dkZdGCm+e4y6M4nUKIKoHw= Received: by 10.216.120.199 with SMTP id p49mr1623928weh.25.1309630894552; Sat, 02 Jul 2011 11:21:34 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.227.5.206 with SMTP id 14ls2085119wbw.0.gmail; Sat, 02 Jul 2011 11:21:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.10.143 with SMTP id p15mr329072wbp.7.1309630893428; Sat, 02 Jul 2011 11:21:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.10.143 with SMTP id p15mr329071wbp.7.1309630893395; Sat, 02 Jul 2011 11:21:33 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f41.google.com (mail-ww0-f41.google.com [74.125.82.41]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id h15si165871wbo.1.2011.07.02.11.21.33 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 02 Jul 2011 11:21:33 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.41 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.41; Received: by wwi14 with SMTP id 14so692849wwi.4 for ; Sat, 02 Jul 2011 11:21:33 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.217.6.197 with SMTP id y47mr2171183wes.55.1309630892880; Sat, 02 Jul 2011 11:21:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.71.77 with HTTP; Sat, 2 Jul 2011 11:21:32 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.71.77 with HTTP; Sat, 2 Jul 2011 11:21:32 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <4E0F5FF1.3000408@gmail.com> References: <20110702023512.GF8547@digitalkingdom.org> <20110702061357.GH8547@digitalkingdom.org> <4E0F5FF1.3000408@gmail.com> Date: Sat, 2 Jul 2011 14:21:32 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Is it a lie? From: Luke Bergen To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.41 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf302ad6982833b804a71a3404 --20cf302ad6982833b804a71a3404 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Yes. I've since educated myself on the classes of lieing and repent my previous wrongness. Although, in fairness, a jocose lie still shows up as a class of lie on wikipedia. Though admitedly it's a pretty weak form On Jul 2, 2011 2:15 PM, "And Rosta" wrote: > Luke Bergen, On 02/07/2011 17:59: >> I disagree. > > Before disagreeing, or in order to disagree more intelligently, read Coleman & Kay 1981 "Prototype semantics and the English word _lie_", < http://www.jstor.org/pss/414285>. > > In a nutshell: in prototype models of semantics, category membership (suc= h as being a lie) is a matter of degree. The extent to which something involves intent to deceive affects the extent to which it counts as a lie. > > ---And. > >>My wife and I jokingly lie to each other all the time. >> Her: did you eat the last piece of cake? >> Me: ~looks around shadily~ uhhh... no? >> >> I know she won't be deceived, and I don't actually intend to deceive. I'= m intentionally telling an untruth in a way that's so bad that I'm effectivel= y comminicating to her that I have eaten the cake. But the word that I said WAS untrue. >> >> Furthermore, if I believe that the sky is pink but I say "the sky is blue" then even though I have said a true expression, I would still call that a lie. >> >> These are why I understand a lie to be a statement that describes realit= y as being different from the reality that the speaker believes to be true. Intent to deceive isn't important and actual truthiness of the statement doesn't matter either. >> >> On Jul 2, 2011 12:45 PM, "Robin Turner" > wrote: >> > A false statement is not necessarily a lie; what makes it a lie is the >> > intent to deceive. ("Lie" is almost as celebrated a case in semantics >> > as "bachelor".) So no word could make something a lie or not, unless >> > we have a (self-defeating) attitudinal that says "lying" ;-) >> > >> > robin.tr >> > >> > On 2 July 2011 09:16, Jonathan Jones > wrote: >> >> Well, lying is deceptive, but it's not necessarily asshole-ish. :D >> >> >> >> to pu benji di'u fo lo mi me la.android. fonxa toi >> >> >> >> mu'o mi'e.aionys. >> >> >> >> On Jul 2, 2011 12:13 AM, "Robin Lee Powell" < rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org > >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> I don't see a significant distinction between "you are lying" and >> >> "you are being a deceptive asshole". >> >> >> >> -Robin >> >> >> >> On Sat, Jul 02, 2011 at 01:59:30AM -0400, Alex Rozenshteyn wrote: >> >>> That feels like a slippery slop... >> >> >> >> -- >> >> >> >> http://singinst.org/ : Our last, best hope for a fantastic future. >> >> Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/):... >> >> >> >> -- >> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> >> "lojban" group. >> >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com . >> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com . >> >> For more options, visit this group at >> >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > "Mix a little foolishness with your serious plans; it is lovely to be >> > silly at the right moment." - Horace >> > >> > Robin Turner >> > IDMYO >> > Bilkent =DCniversitesi >> > Ankara, Turkey >> > >> > http://www.bilkent.edu.tr/~robin >> > http://solri.livejournal.com >> > >> > -- >> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. >> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com . >> > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com . >> > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> > >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --20cf302ad6982833b804a71a3404 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Yes. I've since educated myself on the classes of lieing and repent = my previous wrongness.

Although, in fairness, a jocose lie still shows up as a class of lie on = wikipedia. Though admitedly it's a pretty weak form

On Jul 2, 2011 2:15 PM, "And Rosta" &l= t;and.rosta@gmail.com> wrote:=
> Luke Bergen, On 02/07/2011 17:59:
>>= I disagree.
>
> Before disagreeing, or in order to disagree more intelligentl= y, read Coleman & Kay 1981 "Prototype semantics and the English wo= rd _lie_", <http://www.= jstor.org/pss/414285>.
>
> In a nutshell: in prototype models of semantics, category mem= bership (such as being a lie) is a matter of degree. The extent to which so= mething involves intent to deceive affects the extent to which it counts as= a lie.
>
> ---And.
>
>>My wife and I jokingly lie to eac= h other all the time.
>> Her: did you eat the last piece of cake?<= br>>> Me: ~looks around shadily~ uhhh... no?
>>
>>= I know she won't be deceived, and I don't actually intend to decei= ve. I'm intentionally telling an untruth in a way that's so bad th= at I'm effectively comminicating to her that I have eaten the cake. But= the word that I said WAS untrue.
>>
>> Furthermore, if I believe that the sky is pink but I s= ay "the sky is blue" then even though I have said a true expressi= on, I would still call that a lie.
>>
>> These are why I = understand a lie to be a statement that describes reality as being differen= t from the reality that the speaker believes to be true. Intent to deceive= isn't important and actual truthiness of the statement doesn't mat= ter either.
>>
>> On Jul 2, 2011 12:45 PM, "Robin Turner" <= boldsirrobin@gmail.com <ma= ilto:boldsirrobin@gmail.com&g= t;> wrote:
>> > A false statement is not necessarily a lie; what makes it a = lie is the
>> > intent to deceive. ("Lie" is almost = as celebrated a case in semantics
>> > as "bachelor"= .) So no word could make something a lie or not, unless
>> > we have a (self-defeating) attitudinal that says "lying= " ;-)
>> >
>> > = robin.tr <http://robin.tr>
>= ;> >
>> > On 2 July 2011 09:16, Jonathan Jones <eyeonus@gmail.com <mailto:eyeonus@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> >> Wel= l, lying is deceptive, but it's not necessarily asshole-ish. :D
>> >>
>> >> to pu benji di'u fo lo mi me l= a.android. fonxa toi
>> >>
>> >> mu'o m= i'e.aionys.
>> >>
>> >> On Jul 2, 2011 = 12:13 AM, "Robin Lee Powell" <rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org <mailto:rlpowell@digitalkingdom.org>>
>> >> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> I don= 't see a significant distinction between "you are lying" and<= br>>> >> "you are being a deceptive asshole".
>> >>
>> >> -Robin
>> >>
&g= t;> >> On Sat, Jul 02, 2011 at 01:59:30AM -0400, Alex Rozenshteyn= wrote:
>> >>> That feels like a slippery slop...
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >>
>&g= t; >> http://singinst.org/ : Ou= r last, best hope for a fantastic future.
>> >> Lojban (http://www.lojban.org/):...
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> You recei= ved this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>>= ; >> "lojban" group.
>> >> To post to this= group, send email to lojban@goo= glegroups.com <mailto:loj= ban@googlegroups.com>.
>> >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
>>= ; >> lojban= +unsubscribe@googlegroups.com <mailto:lojban%2Bunsubscribe@googlegroups.com>.=
>> >> For more options, visit this group at
>> >&= gt; http://groups= .google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den.
>> >>
>> &g= t;
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > &qu= ot;Mix a little foolishness with your serious plans; it is lovely to be
= >> > silly at the right moment." - Horace
>> ><= br> >> > Robin Turner
>> > IDMYO
>> > Bilke= nt =DCniversitesi
>> > Ankara, Turkey
>> >
>= ;> > http://www.bilkent= .edu.tr/~robin
>> > http://solri.livejo= urnal.com
>> >
>> > --
>> > You = received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= ;lojban" group.
>> > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com <mailto:lojban@googlegroups.com>.
>> &g= t; To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com <= mailto:lojban%2B= unsubscribe@googlegroups.com>.
>> > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?h= l=3Den.
>> >
>>
>> --
>> You re= ceived this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "l= ojban" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from = this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
>> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den= .
>
> --
> You received this message because you ar= e subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group.
> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this gro= up, send email to = lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
> For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den= .
>

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
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