From lojban+bncCML0xpmUARCZ6KPxBBoEkzxGAA@googlegroups.com Thu Jul 21 20:59:21 2011 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1Qk6pV-0005Bu-Hq; Thu, 21 Jul 2011 20:58:25 -0700 Received: by fxd2 with SMTP id 2sf2458574fxd.16 for ; Thu, 21 Jul 2011 20:53:01 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=7s8j+o4MhgpH7QDX+YI5527DfrPOkAkid0WMdCufUm0=; b=CnOf2ahn9rJPx515yNrsdRlxOGPlfPhdZiaHIpzVkQfzKcHkejtUVqmTnG2C39JikO N8YgX+pTVUsOLuvNn/j0yDAIFjC2ryfe3o6X72drxdE95MwwSIBNT/qGzM1WF8m0XAjB YsClmN9jwba9e53wlYaSJKgimwHAsGQStGyEA= Received: by 10.223.41.143 with SMTP id o15mr271033fae.11.1311306777760; Thu, 21 Jul 2011 20:52:57 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.16.207 with SMTP id p15ls858838bka.3.gmail; Thu, 21 Jul 2011 20:52:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.41.80 with SMTP id n16mr122240bke.23.1311306776573; Thu, 21 Jul 2011 20:52:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.41.80 with SMTP id n16mr122239bke.23.1311306776542; Thu, 21 Jul 2011 20:52:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-fx0-f51.google.com (mail-fx0-f51.google.com [209.85.161.51]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id g16si903703faa.3.2011.07.21.20.52.56 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 21 Jul 2011 20:52:56 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.51 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.161.51; Received: by mail-fx0-f51.google.com with SMTP id 10so4912970fxh.24 for ; Thu, 21 Jul 2011 20:52:56 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.64.66 with SMTP id d2mr1338797fai.116.1311306776386; Thu, 21 Jul 2011 20:52:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.93.203 with HTTP; Thu, 21 Jul 2011 20:52:56 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2011 23:52:56 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Meaning of multiple negations From: Ian Johnson To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.51 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015174764b4991f0204a8a0666b --0015174764b4991f0204a8a0666b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 {na} has full bridi scope (which is *radically* different from how natlangs, or at least English, work); {da} and friends have scope beginning where they are stated. Removing de di to simplify the quantification, and really even moving the {no da} to the front for this purpose, we get: da na broda "It is not the case that there exists something1 such that something1 broda" <-> no da broda no da na broda "It is not the case that there exist 0 something1 such that something1 broda" <-> da broda Adding sumti doesn't really change anything: mi da na broda <-> "It is not the case that there exists something1 such that I broda something1" <-> mi no da broda mi no da na broda <-> "It is not the case that there exist 0 something1 such that I broda something1" <-> mi da broda Getting at something like "There is nothing for which ... not ..." requires {naku} or other such trickery, I believe. mu'o mi'e latros mu'o mi'e latros On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 11:10 PM, .arpis. wrote: > I remember there was a discussion about it a bit ago, but I don't remember > the resolution (Or if there even was one). > > e.g. > {mi na cusku da de di} -> I didn't say anything to anyone [via any medium] > does {mi na cusku noda de di} mean the same or the negation of above? > > IIRC, as I understood the CLL, it means something more like "There is > nothing for which I haven't told it to someone [via some medium]" > > -- > mu'o mi'e .arpis. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0015174764b4991f0204a8a0666b Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable {na} has full bridi scope (which is *radically* different from how natlangs= , or at least English, work); {da} and friends have scope beginning where t= hey are stated. Removing de di to simplify the quantification, and really e= ven moving the {no da} to the front for this purpose, we get:
da na broda
"It is not the case that there exists something1 such t= hat something1 broda" <-> no da broda
no da na broda
"= ;It is not the case that there exist 0 something1 such that something1 brod= a" <-> da broda
Adding sumti doesn't really change anything:
mi da na broda <->= ; "It is not the case that there exists something1 such that I broda s= omething1" <-> mi no da broda
mi no da na broda <-> &qu= ot;It is not the case that there exist 0 something1 such that I broda somet= hing1" <-> mi da broda

Getting at something like "There is nothing for which ... not ...&= quot; requires {naku} or other such trickery, I believe.

mu'o mi= 'e latros

mu'o mi'e latros
On Thu, Jul 21, 2011 at 11:10 PM, .arpis. <rpglover64+jbobau@gmail.com> wrote:
I remember there was a discussion about it a bit ago, but I don't remem= ber the resolution (Or if there even was one).

e.g.
{mi na cusku = da de di} -> I didn't say anything to anyone [via any medium]
does {mi na cusku noda de di} mean the same or the negation of above?
IIRC, as I understood the CLL, it means something more like "There i= s nothing for which I haven't told it to someone [via some medium]"= ;

--
mu'o mi'e .arpis.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
--0015174764b4991f0204a8a0666b--