From lojban+bncCML0xpmUARCxtKbxBBoEY2E9Dg@googlegroups.com Fri Jul 22 08:41:51 2011 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QkHrI-0006aE-0z; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 08:41:51 -0700 Received: by fxd2 with SMTP id 2sf2989576fxd.16 for ; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 08:41:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=wqb1zxa9Hd9bfRwqp3CQCxQKU755HOI+tjhbwkRm+Zk=; b=40BxeJZURF2OrNTRDctSA4uqxUmL7D6VA9xwMHCYLzIx1yCAwIMCTZ+XdhrLUZpl8e 1oMIAluuNlOcygG+wkpFYgQWwklVqWY2uTAiDVFUc2kaEodt7Q7ncnqbeMDMCRz19rb4 u2apvMq0YyNBjZpHkDj+10PqIe9MQRDPFoPQM= Received: by 10.223.41.143 with SMTP id o15mr446610fae.11.1311349297097; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 08:41:37 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.16.207 with SMTP id p15ls1104366bka.3.gmail; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 08:41:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.64.147 with SMTP id e19mr217944bki.9.1311349295542; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 08:41:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.64.147 with SMTP id e19mr217943bki.9.1311349295515; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 08:41:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-fx0-f44.google.com (mail-fx0-f44.google.com [209.85.161.44]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id d14si133040fac.3.2011.07.22.08.41.35 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 22 Jul 2011 08:41:35 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.44 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.161.44; Received: by mail-fx0-f44.google.com with SMTP id 6so5053288fxe.31 for ; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 08:41:35 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.26.70 with SMTP id d6mr2242587fac.78.1311349295368; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 08:41:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.93.203 with HTTP; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 08:41:35 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 11:41:35 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Meaning of multiple negations From: Ian Johnson To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: blindbravado@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of blindbravado@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.44 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=blindbravado@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0015173fef80ed49ca04a8aa4c79 --0015173fef80ed49ca04a8aa4c79 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Indefinite descriptions shouldn't reduce to {da} constructs, I'm fairly sure; they should reduce to {lo} constructs. Regardless, beginning here: su'o da poi prenu cu ricfu gi'e na gleki You can indeed reduce it to what you had, but that also reduces just as wel= l to: su'o da poi prenu goi ko'a cu ricfu .ije ko'a na gleki in which case the bridi with the gleki gives {na} full bridi scope. The bridi tail connectives and forethought connectives all do this, pe'i ca'e ru'e. The assignment is subtle, however, I agree; I'm thinking of it as being purely syntactic, since I don't know how to quantify a prenex over several jufra. mu'o mi'e latros 2011/7/22 Jorge Llamb=EDas > On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 12:52 AM, Ian Johnson > wrote: > > {na} has full bridi scope (which is *radically* different from how > natlangs, > > or at least English, work); > > That in itself wouldn't be a problem. More troublesome is that "full > bridi scope" is not well defined. What would you say are the relative > scopes of "su'o", "gi'e" and "na" in: > > su'o prenu cu ricfu gi'e na gleki > > (I say that means "su'o da poi prenu zo'u ge da ricfu gi da na gleki" > but that puts "na" within the scope of both "su'o" and "gi'e", so no > "full bridi scope" there.) > > mu'o mi'e xorxes > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --0015173fef80ed49ca04a8aa4c79 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Indefinite descriptions shouldn't reduce to {da} constructs, I'm fa= irly sure; they should reduce to {lo} constructs. Regardless, beginning her= e:
su'o da poi prenu cu ricfu gi'e na gleki
You can indeed re= duce it to what you had, but that also reduces just as well to:
su'o da poi prenu goi ko'a cu ricfu .ije ko'a na gleki
in wh= ich case the bridi with the gleki gives {na} full bridi scope. The bridi ta= il connectives and forethought connectives all do this, pe'i ca'e r= u'e. The assignment is subtle, however, I agree; I'm thinking of it= as being purely syntactic, since I don't know how to quantify a prenex= over several jufra.

mu'o mi'e latros
=A0

2011/= 7/22 Jorge Llamb=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>
On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 12:52 AM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com> wrote: > {na} has full bridi scope (which is *radically* different from how nat= langs,
> or at least English, work);

That in itself wouldn't be a problem. More troublesome is that &q= uot;full
bridi scope" is not well defined. What would you say are the relative<= br> scopes of "su'o", "gi'e" and "na" in:=

=A0 su'o prenu cu ricfu gi'e na gleki

(I say that means "su'o da poi prenu zo'u ge da ricfu gi da na= gleki"
but that puts "na" within the scope of both "su'o" = and "gi'e", so no
"full bridi scope" there.)

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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