From lojban+bncCJ2UzZHuDRDJ4afxBBoEXyN0Xw@googlegroups.com Fri Jul 22 14:51:19 2011 Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QkNcp-0001oz-Rs; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 14:51:18 -0700 Received: by vws2 with SMTP id 2sf1273734vws.16 for ; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 14:51:09 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=cX1kDdetyWbo9Y7EjIlXdrpbDTFj3YM4+mfOB6IZbYE=; b=qeWNkuzAF31wonfbxe9UuxOdf2jfrSjJOBaqjgwZXIwI0R9gyGjks3Td8gB4GNSvQ+ t4mLGoJzYnliMFneRgsWmdvpX+Nje4dMzbBHYbYdn7zKlYKLscK++z6/HbR2aACoiW9U CcO8wEy0o0Wmhw5rMhNdGUdJ6eveIh81+oWlA= Received: by 10.220.16.134 with SMTP id o6mr336612vca.52.1311371465565; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 14:51:05 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.221.11.14 with SMTP id pc14ls356892vcb.1.canary; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 14:51:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.74.73 with SMTP id r9mr386240vdv.47.1311371463842; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 14:51:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.74.73 with SMTP id r9mr386239vdv.47.1311371463833; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 14:51:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-vw0-f54.google.com (mail-vw0-f54.google.com [209.85.212.54]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id v20si2225422vdu.2.2011.07.22.14.51.03 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Fri, 22 Jul 2011 14:51:03 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.54 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.212.54; Received: by vws18 with SMTP id 18so2576205vws.13 for ; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 14:51:03 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.52.68.138 with SMTP id w10mr2134050vdt.43.1311371463740; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 14:51:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.111.198 with HTTP; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 14:51:03 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 18:51:03 -0300 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Meaning of multiple negations From: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Jorge_Llamb=EDas?= To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: jjllambias@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of jjllambias@gmail.com designates 209.85.212.54 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=jjllambias@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 12:41 PM, Ian Johnson wrote: > Indefinite descriptions shouldn't reduce to {da} constructs, I'm fairly > sure; they should reduce to {lo} constructs. I disagree, but as you say it's not relevant here. > Regardless, beginning here: > su'o da poi prenu cu ricfu gi'e na gleki > You can indeed reduce it to what you had, Good. > but that also reduces just as well > to: > su'o da poi prenu goi ko'a cu ricfu .ije ko'a na gleki No, it doesn't. What is the value assigned to "ko'a" in that first bridi? Is it any one person, some person who is rich, some person who is both rich and not happy, or something else? Can the assignment of a value or values to ko'a depend on the second bridi? Attaching "goi ko'a" to something that doesn't have referents (i.e. a quantifier expression) is somewhat strange, because "goi ko'a" is meant to assign some referent(s) to ko'a. > in which case the bridi with the gleki gives {na} full bridi scope. The > bridi tail connectives and forethought connectives all do this, pe'i ca'e > ru'e. The assignment is subtle, however, I agree; I'm thinking of it as > being purely syntactic, since I don't know how to quantify a prenex over > several jufra. To use a prenex that is common to several sentences you can use "prenex tu'e sentence .i sentence .i sentence ... tu'u", but how does that help with the ko'a assignment? If by "purely syntactic" you mean that "ko'a" is standing for the expression "su'o da poi prenu" (which I don't think it can) then it still doesn't work, because "su'o da poi prenu cu ricfu .ije su'o da poi prenu na gleki" doesn't have the desired meaning under any scope rule for "na". mu'o mi'e xorxes -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en.