From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRCh4qjxBBoEqGp9_Q@googlegroups.com Fri Jul 22 19:25:51 2011 Received: from mail-gx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QkRuW-0007Fg-7z; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 19:25:51 -0700 Received: by gxk3 with SMTP id 3sf2660683gxk.16 for ; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 19:25:41 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-yahoo-newman-id:x-yahoo-newman-property :x-ymail-osg:x-yahoo-smtp:references:in-reply-to :x-apple-yahoo-original-message-folder:mime-version:message-id :x-mailer:from:x-apple-yahoo-replied-msgid:subject:date:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=5p41oFRfA1aWZ2ohPqKNDW5MC1KxFLYcb0nMqChnUCw=; b=YDxERXSAvdVqFywTlvP5Y46JmcnOZ1SGjJemGrWQsvMThjTihXa/p7i0Vii0M3gfQy tj7oWE42JQOp5Cm5k8xVEnOBQNK5WGHgoynhL1/gOPeYDG7E51zb+k4DD6/t8WhBddLq acrL3Bm+Uz0A2E5xF3X/Det9i/uVfAn+RQ3EA= Received: by 10.236.156.233 with SMTP id m69mr272975yhk.79.1311387937955; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 19:25:37 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.231.77.5 with SMTP id e5ls359719ibk.0.gmail; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 19:25:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.76.136 with SMTP id e8mr716043ick.25.1311387937323; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 19:25:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.42.76.136 with SMTP id e8mr716042ick.25.1311387937313; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 19:25:37 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm1-vm1.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com (nm1-vm1.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com [98.138.91.36]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id gh9si1490499icb.3.2011.07.22.19.25.36; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 19:25:36 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.138.91.36 as permitted sender) client-ip=98.138.91.36; Received: from [98.138.90.56] by nm1.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Jul 2011 02:25:36 -0000 Received: from [98.138.87.12] by tm9.bullet.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Jul 2011 02:25:36 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1012.mail.ne1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Jul 2011 02:25:36 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 24747.70880.bm@omp1012.mail.ne1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 3704 invoked from network); 23 Jul 2011 02:25:35 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: 9yabABsVM1kt0e5vvGaFRU0M_bI_vX9ty1_NctBAaxaufm2 QxhpUIoOtGmqJ1WRhjh1L4BtRxYJYTbmDzxfgyXqzwEBsM88Rbr3WiY5PT5n ZAQ9imERo.LO.nqqE0eHe1oBOcv7yw9BmkchjfMik9XdF4qPjgUQTrH.nXLF oHWQ1gQYRam19v.T9TKWpFHxZ5yvkcRjxmw7q1TGOIyNNysGUX5uq5tw850D TqU_VOC3WHD88rEyySKxd.CHiBbX0CYckuFqYD7n0_IiqU7IK7m.47Lzx7Cc DK5._yZmaWIUpQQO385.YmJNyjmTzDGQ3rKSQBzXr6CFfaVeiuGxcBK7ioU5 pcCbeEa8HVbgLid0bWr9sUo1yvPHqFNM6efevCYlS9r6w1Wi.eYMWe4UEhDU JjGhhjSa99X0tji3pBlSM8iSmgU7L5LkHLYF9y9Qb5V6WZ8deMqLVk2rqeLG hXf5BEFyR5g-- X-Yahoo-SMTP: xvGyF4GswBCIFKGaxf5wSjlg3RF108g- Received: from [192.168.1.68] (kali9putra@99.92.108.41 with xymcookie) by smtp107-mob.biz.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Jul 2011 19:25:34 -0700 PDT References: In-Reply-To: X-Apple-Yahoo-Original-Message-Folder: AAlojbanery Mime-Version: 1.0 (iPad Mail 8G4) Message-Id: <46B11758-C6D1-493E-8046-DEF3DEA273DB@yahoo.com> X-Mailer: iPad Mail (8G4) From: "John E. Clifford" X-Apple-Yahoo-Replied-Msgid: 1_9375521_AHrHjkQAAHwlTinwzwC39BMHors Subject: Re: [lojban] Meaning of multiple negations Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 22:32:44 -0400 To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.138.91.36 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Or 'su'o' Sent from my iPad On Jul 22, 2011, at 17:51, Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote: > On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 12:41 PM, Ian Johnson wr= ote: >> Indefinite descriptions shouldn't reduce to {da} constructs, I'm fairly >> sure; they should reduce to {lo} constructs. >=20 > I disagree, but as you say it's not relevant here. >=20 >> Regardless, beginning here: >> su'o da poi prenu cu ricfu gi'e na gleki >> You can indeed reduce it to what you had, >=20 > Good. >=20 >> but that also reduces just as well >> to: >> su'o da poi prenu goi ko'a cu ricfu .ije ko'a na gleki >=20 > No, it doesn't. What is the value assigned to "ko'a" in that first > bridi? Is it any one person, some person who is rich, some person who > is both rich and not happy, or something else? Can the assignment of > a value or values to ko'a depend on the second bridi? Attaching "goi > ko'a" to something that doesn't have referents (i.e. a quantifier > expression) is somewhat strange, because "goi ko'a" is meant to assign > some referent(s) to ko'a. >=20 >> in which case the bridi with the gleki gives {na} full bridi scope. The >> bridi tail connectives and forethought connectives all do this, pe'i ca'= e >> ru'e. The assignment is subtle, however, I agree; I'm thinking of it as >> being purely syntactic, since I don't know how to quantify a prenex over >> several jufra. >=20 > To use a prenex that is common to several sentences you can use > "prenex tu'e sentence .i sentence .i sentence ... tu'u", but how does > that help with the ko'a assignment? >=20 > If by "purely syntactic" you mean that "ko'a" is standing for the > expression "su'o da poi prenu" (which I don't think it can) then it > still doesn't work, because "su'o da poi prenu cu ricfu .ije su'o da > poi prenu na gleki" doesn't have the desired meaning under any scope > rule for "na". >=20 > mu'o mi'e xorxes >=20 > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojb= an?hl=3Den. >=20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.