From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRDl5KjxBBoEG2Ehzg@googlegroups.com Fri Jul 22 19:31:16 2011 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QkRzk-0007Lp-9q; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 19:31:15 -0700 Received: by fxd2 with SMTP id 2sf3391521fxd.16 for ; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 19:31:05 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-yahoo-newman-id:x-yahoo-newman-property :x-ymail-osg:x-yahoo-smtp:references:in-reply-to :x-apple-yahoo-original-message-folder:mime-version:message-id :x-mailer:from:x-apple-yahoo-replied-msgid:subject:date:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=TQ037iPCGLSs+5Qv9Xx0xoWLc3nsp0ZbadxmnV9H2Xs=; b=4XdzXbrzz2FOrPy3lMZCm33yccvRw4qJnn6oUvjoUn/XVeOfsDr0NWijujRGihCS3u 54JVDkRXOeGxULbupUvqs50T7Wp6Bdtt2VRpnS+WLZgQVgxTSWxpttbAdd+1wRv/kc1c Q5RwEQacgeNt8Cz2JQP3tQF1QFFR4sY13Gih8= Received: by 10.223.24.153 with SMTP id v25mr636564fab.48.1311388261276; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 19:31:01 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.39.211 with SMTP id h19ls1266343bke.2.gmail; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 19:30:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.16.133 with SMTP id o5mr254210bka.20.1311388259402; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 19:30:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.16.133 with SMTP id o5mr254209bka.20.1311388259385; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 19:30:59 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm24.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com (nm24.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com [98.139.91.94]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id q27si1196009fab.2.2011.07.22.19.30.58; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 19:30:59 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.139.91.94 as permitted sender) client-ip=98.139.91.94; Received: from [98.139.91.68] by nm24.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Jul 2011 02:30:58 -0000 Received: from [98.139.91.14] by tm8.bullet.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Jul 2011 02:30:58 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1014.mail.sp2.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Jul 2011 02:30:58 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 95904.61373.bm@omp1014.mail.sp2.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 25233 invoked from network); 23 Jul 2011 02:30:57 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: OTl_3vIVM1mXjMehxtEzTbtxznoZKYgyHiTNQJThipuLgq9 i.muC_2wndJNL5e6ixyW8AWS3B903Eyu2twNxmE_9dNWaYrmJTM87vuFH19S rL_BgXiAvX37GPw05rw46UcOAO.QDbvj3jIqZfTOnMMZugES3gggL9x3IeHU .wxsItKbcrgGlS5xmrOCElKVPI.VJeOIH.2_OcaIEDj5lDSyCWqcsqXYquAw 3uRu3iKhPWdmP8p7KeSvILAYsezmza_Oa9AbDYdJnIxIc4qjXs00eMTVjEyC Tmi8xpBmO7_TYJ4EU_NklSV90D68PwsfPm__5hm5yTiGNuqb7x_3n9snN3zC lLQyQWHkHP0JGn.M7TcEaV3.XrOJZ5EUtJNXD9ek3QlWK7UWZydIpw4q2GFJ vaTH6t_UfvcBoebZVBkb2ZykUNoR9cBytVIaqc56v_7Ng1AkvsREDoExZ97i tpOh1qof5UA-- X-Yahoo-SMTP: xvGyF4GswBCIFKGaxf5wSjlg3RF108g- Received: from [192.168.1.68] (kali9putra@99.92.108.41 with xymcookie) by smtp106-mob.biz.mail.gq1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Jul 2011 19:30:57 -0700 PDT References: <17303618-716D-4777-BAA4-1E69836AF175@yahoo.com> In-Reply-To: X-Apple-Yahoo-Original-Message-Folder: AAlojbanery Mime-Version: 1.0 (iPad Mail 8G4) Message-Id: X-Mailer: iPad Mail (8G4) From: "John E. Clifford" X-Apple-Yahoo-Replied-Msgid: 1_9377025_AHrHjkQAAKjKTin0fAgeSX64NvM Subject: Re: [lojban] Meaning of multiple negations Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 22:38:06 -0400 To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.139.91.94 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There are many cases where that simple approach doesn't work satisfactorily= , mainly with longer scopes or more buried ones. Sent from my iPad On Jul 22, 2011, at 18:06, Jorge Llamb=EDas wrote: > On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 6:55 PM, John E. Clifford = wrote: >> Ditto (the second part) for most scope issues, especially right hand end= s. The difficulties here are a major reason why attempts to translate back= from Lojban to predicate logic either fail or are much more complicated th= an one would expect. >=20 > The rules to move from Lojban to predicate logic notation are actually > quite simple if you ignore the "full bridi scope" nonsense: You > convert afterthought connectives to forethought and then you just > start from left to right and move things to the prenex: >=20 > su'o da poi prenu cu ricfu gi'e na gleki > =3D su'o da poi prenu ge ricfu gi na gleki > =3D su'o da poi prenu zo'u da ge ricfu gi na gleki > =3D su'o da poi prenu zo'u ge da ricfu gi da na gleki > =3D su'o da poi prenu zo'u ge da ricfu gi naku zo'u da gleki > =3D Ex:R(x)^~G(x) >=20 > Notice that in the last step you could say that "na" has "full bridi > scope", but that's only after you have moved all preceding connectives > and quantifiers out of the way, not before. >=20 > mu'o mi'e xorxes >=20 > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojb= an?hl=3Den. >=20 --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.