From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRDY6ajxBBoEvXyuHA@googlegroups.com Fri Jul 22 19:41:53 2011 Received: from mail-vw0-f61.google.com ([209.85.212.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QkS9q-0007YC-Sh; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 19:41:53 -0700 Received: by vws2 with SMTP id 2sf1337744vws.16 for ; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 19:41:32 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-yahoo-newman-id:x-yahoo-newman-property :x-ymail-osg:x-yahoo-smtp:references:in-reply-to :x-apple-yahoo-original-message-folder:mime-version:message-id :x-mailer:from:x-apple-yahoo-replied-msgid:subject:date:to :x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=yLK4WuKxjieq6TtDmJLK0wAEppZxMiZWPLwF28UIWIg=; b=yI+Gal6f8d3rMpBbYvXd29ErLIV4/bHB+70XoC/l6+qzWRHG8AYvzzQus1GbRq5g8o 7oRhGBTMAmk8GFO7hE6KFCfaLqHu84xhgxozDXDwNMXARBzZlY6QK8rC4tlmaXCka1QT h1fvJG9GoXRi3s8+FJOuxdiOM9YcMT33FZ3Ok= Received: by 10.220.172.10 with SMTP id j10mr372002vcz.3.1311388888412; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 19:41:28 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.52.179.138 with SMTP id dg10ls1056271vdc.2.gmail; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 19:41:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.23.43 with SMTP id j11mr446759vdf.18.1311388887293; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 19:41:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.23.43 with SMTP id j11mr446758vdf.18.1311388887208; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 19:41:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm12-vm0.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com (nm12-vm0.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com [98.139.213.140]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id bv16si2390045vdc.1.2011.07.22.19.41.27; Fri, 22 Jul 2011 19:41:27 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.139.213.140 as permitted sender) client-ip=98.139.213.140; Received: from [98.139.212.152] by nm12.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Jul 2011 02:41:26 -0000 Received: from [98.139.212.250] by tm9.bullet.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Jul 2011 02:41:26 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1059.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 23 Jul 2011 02:41:26 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 815312.27499.bm@omp1059.mail.bf1.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 77430 invoked from network); 23 Jul 2011 02:41:26 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-YMail-OSG: 6es8HRYVM1nK1CJ5jEtB0IdTUnCgERhzEmkNFXK54oeL832 nS5mq9K28hnktjZCifzFTCUJxljfc7N7MoM.e2zh5vT2yjeB2Qz2vUTzpoN0 3xw7XmjgOTJReCSJcoGiIvl82yd2DfFlJq8JMQmAuabuUrj4oY.N.qT7PsT1 UNTMV6EkpjngQOLEdJgkviVB0uZisUZZ_HHe5S9AWtp56jRDC9pup_T.9p.U Z2R48rdRoRyM7wq6pRBB0OPpxc75I86y0LUH2mIKizWOUAipbyMm1z8vy6yx vwY30JN7JEECTFunAFYs48GYAGcWUpfYiJu0nzhMvpNbN_yWvoVFDVFIdhgX oXdUtd17wrX9eGdls3hUOSk8OspkIjJw0Yhyu2CZ2AZ7q3wTv.WClkn0GihF bFKWGrON8UxlNix5Q.LFQoFOVX1ghJw8_ExGSWGPFkg7UX3i48g-- X-Yahoo-SMTP: xvGyF4GswBCIFKGaxf5wSjlg3RF108g- Received: from [192.168.1.68] (kali9putra@99.92.108.41 with xymcookie) by smtp119-mob.biz.mail.bf1.yahoo.com with SMTP; 22 Jul 2011 19:41:26 -0700 PDT References: In-Reply-To: X-Apple-Yahoo-Original-Message-Folder: AAlojbanery Mime-Version: 1.0 (iPad Mail 8G4) Message-Id: X-Mailer: iPad Mail (8G4) From: "John E. Clifford" X-Apple-Yahoo-Replied-Msgid: 1_9378542_AHnHjkQAAKfVTioRUQf75WwiMvc Subject: Re: [lojban] Meaning of multiple negations Date: Fri, 22 Jul 2011 22:48:32 -0400 To: "lojban@googlegroups.com" X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 98.139.213.140 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-2-222152171 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --Apple-Mail-2-222152171 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 If it's referents yuou want, use 'lo'. As for whose idea it all was, it go= es back to JCB and before him to, who was a good logician. It helps to thi= nk things through beforehand to get the clearest, but that doesn't help rea= d someone else's garble. There is in Lojban no simple quantified for "exists", which is merely anoth= er predicate, whose extension need not encompass the universe of discourse,= to which"there is an x" applies. Sent from my iPad On Jul 22, 2011, at 20:09, Ian Johnson wrote: > If we're at the point where we're talking in terms of using tu'e tu'u to = fix a situation, then something is seriously weird. Still, what you did a f= ew posts down works better I suppose, although it is honestly a bit overcom= plicated for practical use (like, grokking that so you don't have to actual= ly sit there and grind it out to figure out what happened is pretty painful= ). Whose idea was it for \forall to be PA KOhA and for \exists to be KOhA, = both without any variation that doesn't need such a thing, anyway? I find i= t leads to issues not just here but in the whole "da doesn't have referents= " issue, since its grammar and even to some extent its idiomatic gloss make= s it "seem" like it should have referents. >=20 > mu'o mi'e latros >=20 > 2011/7/22 Jorge Llamb=EDas > On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 12:41 PM, Ian Johnson wr= ote: > > Indefinite descriptions shouldn't reduce to {da} constructs, I'm fairly > > sure; they should reduce to {lo} constructs. >=20 > I disagree, but as you say it's not relevant here. >=20 > > Regardless, beginning here: > > su'o da poi prenu cu ricfu gi'e na gleki > > You can indeed reduce it to what you had, >=20 > Good. >=20 > > but that also reduces just as well > > to: > > su'o da poi prenu goi ko'a cu ricfu .ije ko'a na gleki >=20 > No, it doesn't. What is the value assigned to "ko'a" in that first > bridi? Is it any one person, some person who is rich, some person who > is both rich and not happy, or something else? Can the assignment of > a value or values to ko'a depend on the second bridi? Attaching "goi > ko'a" to something that doesn't have referents (i.e. a quantifier > expression) is somewhat strange, because "goi ko'a" is meant to assign > some referent(s) to ko'a. >=20 > > in which case the bridi with the gleki gives {na} full bridi scope. The > > bridi tail connectives and forethought connectives all do this, pe'i ca= 'e > > ru'e. The assignment is subtle, however, I agree; I'm thinking of it as > > being purely syntactic, since I don't know how to quantify a prenex ove= r > > several jufra. >=20 > To use a prenex that is common to several sentences you can use > "prenex tu'e sentence .i sentence .i sentence ... tu'u", but how does > that help with the ko'a assignment? >=20 > If by "purely syntactic" you mean that "ko'a" is standing for the > expression "su'o da poi prenu" (which I don't think it can) then it > still doesn't work, because "su'o da poi prenu cu ricfu .ije su'o da > poi prenu na gleki" doesn't have the desired meaning under any scope > rule for "na". >=20 > mu'o mi'e xorxes >=20 > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojb= an?hl=3Den. >=20 >=20 > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegr= oups.com. > For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojb= an?hl=3Den. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --Apple-Mail-2-222152171 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1
If it's referents yuou want, use 'lo'.=  As for whose idea it all was, it goes back to JCB and before him to,= who was a good logician.  It helps to think things through beforehand= to get the clearest, but that doesn't help read someone else's garble.
There is in Lojban no simple quantified for "exists", which is merel= y another predicate, whose extension need not encompass the universe of dis= course, to which"there is an x" applies.

Sent from my iPad

On Jul 22, 2011, at 20:09, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com> wrote:

If we're at the point where we're talking = in terms of using tu'e tu'u to fix a situation, then something is seriously= weird. Still, what you did a few posts down works better I suppose, althou= gh it is honestly a bit overcomplicated for practical use (like, grokking t= hat so you don't have to actually sit there and grind it out to figure out = what happened is pretty painful). Whose idea was it for \forall to be PA KO= hA and for \exists to be KOhA, both without any variation that doesn't need= such a thing, anyway? I find it leads to issues not just here but in the w= hole "da doesn't have referents" issue, since its grammar and even to some = extent its idiomatic gloss makes it "seem" like it should have referents.
mu'o mi'e latros

2011/7/22 Jorge Llam= b=EDas <jjllambias@gmail.com>
On Fri, Jul 22, 2011 at 12:41 PM, Ian Johnson <blindbravado@gmail.com> wrote:
> Indefinite descriptions shouldn't reduce to {da} constructs, I'm fairl= y
> sure; they should reduce to {lo} constructs.

I disagree, but as you say it's not relevant here.

> Regardless, beginning here:
> su'o da poi prenu cu ricfu gi'e na gleki
> You can indeed reduce it to what you had,

Good.

> but that also reduces just as well
> to:
> su'o da poi prenu goi ko'a cu ricfu .ije ko'a na gleki

No, it doesn't. What is the value assigned to "ko'a" in that first bridi? Is it any one person, some person who is rich, some person who
is both rich and not happy, or something else?  Can the assignment of<= br> a value or values to ko'a depend on the second bridi? Attaching "goi
ko'a" to something that doesn't have referents (i.e. a quantifier
expression) is somewhat strange, because "goi ko'a" is meant to assign
some referent(s) to ko'a.

> in which case the bridi with the gleki gives {na} full bridi scope. Th= e
> bridi tail connectives and forethought connectives all do this, pe'i c= a'e
> ru'e. The assignment is subtle, however, I agree; I'm thinking of it a= s
> being purely syntactic, since I don't know how to quantify a prenex ov= er
> several jufra.

To use a prenex that is common to several sentences you can use
"prenex tu'e sentence .i sentence .i sentence ... tu'u", but how does
that help with the ko'a assignment?

If by "purely syntactic" you mean that "ko'a" is standing for the
expression "su'o da poi prenu" (which I don't think it can) then it
still doesn't work, because "su'o da poi prenu cu ricfu .ije su'o da
poi prenu na gleki" doesn't have the desired meaning under any scope
rule for "na".

mu'o mi'e xorxes

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