From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBDaoqzxBBoEtUTzVQ@googlegroups.com Sat Jul 23 11:22:45 2011 Received: from mail-wy0-f189.google.com ([74.125.82.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QkgqL-0000PP-9u; Sat, 23 Jul 2011 11:22:44 -0700 Received: by wyh13 with SMTP id 13sf6107239wyh.16 for ; Sat, 23 Jul 2011 11:22:22 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:from:date:message-id:subject :to:x-original-sender:x-original-authentication-results:reply-to :precedence:mailing-list:list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post :list-help:list-archive:sender:list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe :content-type; bh=z2QkGTKy5usE7qPyQCWx6eJdvBzaTFpfq0gSQf9ZyN0=; b=tR+rrWvc2adFNw4+yebhaGJlWPpo1oOc5o1YZ3uGtDg+0q909h6OO+JFLZH51+VhWg 9GtGjekhnCNHpi4n+YQgfWgh6Lb1+4FmGhg+8u27Y+xvrNdrq1ns5QX9lzAfthnLUFbX JC/+05Iy39c8SDNq6SmHZ/4cYns+XOyBsuTH8= Received: by 10.216.166.79 with SMTP id f57mr784016wel.9.1311445338353; Sat, 23 Jul 2011 11:22:18 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.227.153.168 with SMTP id k40ls2021396wbw.0.gmail; Sat, 23 Jul 2011 11:22:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.208.81 with SMTP id gb17mr166039wbb.9.1311445337243; Sat, 23 Jul 2011 11:22:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.208.81 with SMTP id gb17mr166038wbb.9.1311445337227; Sat, 23 Jul 2011 11:22:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-ww0-f44.google.com (mail-ww0-f44.google.com [74.125.82.44]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id fh14si3939998wbb.0.2011.07.23.11.22.17 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sat, 23 Jul 2011 11:22:17 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.44 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.44; Received: by wwe5 with SMTP id 5so3029392wwe.1 for ; Sat, 23 Jul 2011 11:22:17 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.216.29.133 with SMTP id i5mr2287452wea.61.1311445337069; Sat, 23 Jul 2011 11:22:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.11.13 with HTTP; Sat, 23 Jul 2011 11:21:57 -0700 (PDT) From: Luke Bergen Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2011 14:21:57 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: [lojban] groupyness in definitions To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.44 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0016e6db5bc87558b904a8c0a95c --0016e6db5bc87558b904a8c0a95c Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 I was thinking about how one would define "vrici" in lojban (I've since looked it up and xorxes has already done this). But at the time, I came up with something like {ro xyxipa cu frica ro lo drata xyxipa lo ka xyxire}. Then I thought some more about it and started wondering if that {drata} was really doing what I wanted it to. If we're talking about {ro lo broda} then we're saying "all of those things that broda which are within the scope of our discourse". But now if I say "ro lo drata broda" that "other"ness is being applied to the "broda" and then we take "all of that". Is there a way to say "all of the things in xyxipa taken as individuals are different from each of (all of the things in the set xyxipa minus itself as individuals) in property xyxire". I'm clearly not well-versed in talking about groups and individuals and whatnot but I hope I've at least gotten the root of my question through. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0016e6db5bc87558b904a8c0a95c Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I was thinking about how one would define "vrici" in lojban (I= 9;ve since looked it up and xorxes has already done this). =A0But at the ti= me, I came up with something like {ro xyxipa cu frica ro lo drata xyxipa lo= ka xyxire}.

Then I thought some more about it and started wondering if t= hat {drata} was really doing what I wanted it to. =A0If we're talking a= bout {ro lo broda} then we're saying "all of those things that bro= da which are within the scope of our discourse". =A0But now if I say &= quot;ro lo drata broda" that "other"ness is being applied to= the "broda" and then we take "all of that".

Is there a way to say "all of the things in xyxipa= taken as individuals are=A0different=A0from each of (all of the things in = the set xyxipa minus itself as individuals) in property xyxire".

I'm clearly not well-versed in talking about groups= and individuals and whatnot but I hope I've at least gotten the root o= f my question through.

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