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Date: Sat, 23 Jul 2011 12:58:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [lojban] groupyness in definitions
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I suspect it would help to figure out what it says in English first.  "a is 
miscellaneous/assorted/mixed in property b"  First of all, b is presumably a 
generic property, although I suppose it could be specific (some members have it, 
some don't) or scalar.  Next, we can't do much with taking members of the set 
one at a time, since there may be several members of a which are the same with 
respect to b but different from some others (I happen to be ingesting my 
favorite snack, Necco Wafers, which is in each package an assortment of disks of 
seven different flavors, even though there are thirty or so disks in a 
package).  So, the simplest way to define 'vrici' is "not uniform in b" "there 
are two members of a which are different with respect to b", though we might 
require more variety or at least more members that differ.





________________________________
From: Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Sat, July 23, 2011 1:21:57 PM
Subject: [lojban] groupyness in definitions

I was thinking about how one would define "vrici" in lojban (I've since looked 
it up and xorxes has already done this).  But at the time, I came up with 
something like {ro xyxipa cu frica ro lo drata xyxipa lo ka xyxire}.

Then I thought some more about it and started wondering if that {drata} was 
really doing what I wanted it to.  If we're talking about {ro lo broda} then 
we're saying "all of those things that broda which are within the scope of our 
discourse".  But now if I say "ro lo drata broda" that "other"ness is being 
applied to the "broda" and then we take "all of that".

Is there a way to say "all of the things in xyxipa taken as individuals 
are different from each of (all of the things in the set xyxipa minus itself as 
individuals) in property xyxire".

I'm clearly not well-versed in talking about groups and individuals and whatnot 
but I hope I've at least gotten the root of my question through.
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<html><head><style type=3D"text/css"><!-- DIV {margin:0px;} --></style></he=
ad><body><div style=3D"font-family:times new roman,new york,times,serif;fon=
t-size:12pt">I suspect it would help to figure out what it says in English =
first.&nbsp; "a is miscellaneous/assorted/mixed in property b"&nbsp; First =
of all, b is presumably a generic property, although I suppose it could be =
specific (some members have it, some don't) or scalar.&nbsp; Next, we can't=
 do much with taking members of the set one at a time, since there may be s=
everal members of a which are the same with respect to b but different from=
 some others (I happen to be ingesting my favorite snack, Necco Wafers, whi=
ch is in each package an assortment of disks of seven different flavors, ev=
en though there are thirty or so disks in a package).&nbsp; So, the simples=
t way to define 'vrici' is "not uniform in b" "there are two members of a w=
hich are different with respect to b", though we might require more
 variety or at least more members that differ.<br><div><br></div><div style=
=3D"font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-size:12pt"><br=
><div style=3D"font-family:times new roman, new york, times, serif;font-siz=
e:12pt"><font size=3D"2" face=3D"Tahoma"><hr size=3D"1"><b><span style=3D"f=
ont-weight: bold;">From:</span></b> Luke Bergen &lt;lukeabergen@gmail.com&g=
t;<br><b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> lojban@googlegro=
ups.com<br><b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Sat, July=
 23, 2011 1:21:57 PM<br><b><span style=3D"font-weight: bold;">Subject:</spa=
n></b> [lojban] groupyness in definitions<br></font><br>
I was thinking about how one would define "vrici" in lojban (I've since loo=
ked it up and xorxes has already done this). &nbsp;But at the time, I came =
up with something like {ro xyxipa cu frica ro lo drata xyxipa lo ka xyxire}=
.<div>

<br></div><div>Then I thought some more about it and started wondering if t=
hat {drata} was really doing what I wanted it to. &nbsp;If we're talking ab=
out {ro lo broda} then we're saying "all of those things that broda which a=
re within the scope of our discourse". &nbsp;But now if I say "ro lo drata =
broda" that "other"ness is being applied to the "broda" and then we take "a=
ll of that".</div>

<div><br></div><div>Is there a way to say "all of the things in xyxipa take=
n as individuals are&nbsp;different&nbsp;from each of (all of the things in=
 the set xyxipa minus itself as individuals) in property xyxire".</div>

<div><br></div><div>I'm clearly not well-versed in talking about groups and=
 individuals and whatnot but I hope I've at least gotten the root of my que=
stion through.</div>

<p></p>

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n?hl=3Den</a>.</span><br>


</div></div>



</div></body></html>

<p></p>

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