From lojban+bncCNf8pM-bDBCH08HwBBoE-MXjAw@googlegroups.com Sun Jul 03 06:07:34 2011 Received: from mail-vx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.220.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QdMOY-0005am-NR; Sun, 03 Jul 2011 06:07:34 -0700 Received: by vxg38 with SMTP id 38sf2902656vxg.16 for ; Sun, 03 Jul 2011 06:07:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:sender:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=NsMggzRLMX7N+JLVywPL4H+ZUxn6MbDhKvMShdzqJec=; b=RwAGFChArybFU2KJYzEKLzY1IbhTRPmHwn9gn1Yca0k5zCy7LKCSVOm9WqySldvTR0 BMzOjlX4gHlav4uRVfMVhR/iHlTvwiEsgVs5em0u/liwxP2FqEzEfD01gQF1PveWrs3W q0xBMd0DEnpX3eVNOqKbhs4mnLLMZu3l5vv/M= Received: by 10.220.214.130 with SMTP id ha2mr673195vcb.36.1309698439675; Sun, 03 Jul 2011 06:07:19 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.52.96.197 with SMTP id du5ls2306314vdb.1.gmail; Sun, 03 Jul 2011 06:07:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.179.8 with SMTP id dc8mr971328vdc.14.1309698438449; Sun, 03 Jul 2011 06:07:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.52.179.8 with SMTP id dc8mr971327vdc.14.1309698438440; Sun, 03 Jul 2011 06:07:18 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-qy0-f175.google.com (mail-qy0-f175.google.com [209.85.216.175]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id a10si4315406vdt.0.2011.07.03.06.07.17 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Sun, 03 Jul 2011 06:07:17 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.175 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.216.175; Received: by mail-qy0-f175.google.com with SMTP id 30so659607qyk.13 for ; Sun, 03 Jul 2011 06:07:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.229.8.138 with SMTP id h10mr3787881qch.105.1309698437163; Sun, 03 Jul 2011 06:07:17 -0700 (PDT) Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.229.228.70 with HTTP; Sun, 3 Jul 2011 06:07:16 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <18295425.2260.1308825326908.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqie9> <0978f791-223c-4a08-9e67-a8cbf303beab@h17g2000yqn.googlegroups.com> Date: Sun, 3 Jul 2011 14:07:16 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: How it should have been. And how it could be. From: tijlan To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: paskios@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of paskios@gmail.com designates 209.85.216.175 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=paskios@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 2 July 2011 23:42, Stela Selckiku wrote: > On Wed, Jun 29, 2011 at 7:21 PM, tijlan wrote: >> >> If those new words each *convey* one stable meaning as they should, >> there wouldn't be much of a problem. It's ok to have "nanla", >> "nakyve'a", "citnau", etc. with the same meaning, provided that the >> meaning can be unambiguously understood. > > I'm not sure that's how languages work. =A0Words want to occupy their > own space. =A0If you take a set of meanings where there's "nanla" and > you drop in "citnau" they don't want to mean exactly the same thing. > They start to bounce off of each other magnetically, until every time > you choose to say "citnau" or "nanla" you're implicitly conveying a > socially relevant distinction. > > There's nothing inherently wrong with that-- that's how natural > languages came to be, and they're pretty useful-- but it does tend to > lead to malglico, since the most readily available distinctions are > preexisting ones. =A0For instance I wouldn't be surprised to see the > nanla/citnau split try to follow the boy / young man split in English, > such that a nanla is much younger than sexual maturity, and someone > might start to prefer "citnau" and be offended by "nanla" at a certain > age. =A0It's probably best to look for any Lojbanic difference we can > teach and emphasize when there are similar words, instead of just > leaving them as "the same" and letting them find their own subtleties. Yes, "nanla" and "citnau" may have different pragmatics. "citnau" may be effectively more comparative than "nanla" to "citno / makcu" and "nanmu / ninmu", which may give rise to a difference in usage between "citnau" and "nanla". The point of my response to Escape, though, was: If multiple words are defined to mean the same thing, that itself won't be the worst thing that can happen, since communication won't fail for such semantic convergence. >> A worse case would be a word with competing and equally-sound >> definitions. > > This happens all the time, to greater and lesser degrees. =A0I think > we've informally created a fairly effective system for dealing with > it. > > The first step is to make specific words that definitely produce the > various possible meanings that various people want, such as longer > lujvo. =A0This clarifies the dispute, provides useful vocabulary for > discussing it, and ensures that no one walks away from the table > entirely empty handed-- you definitely get some word that produces the > meaning you wanted to express, you might just get a slightly longer > one than you'd hoped for. > > Then the default solution is: The meaning of the shorter term is now > generalized to include both of the meanings, and the long forms can be > used as necessary to disambiguate. =A0That solution is the first > considered because it's very often acceptable to everyone. =A0None of > the past uses of the term are invalidated, they're just using a more > general term than they thought they were, but it'll still almost > always imply exactly the same thing in context. =A0The language is > deepened by some specific vocabulary, while a broader word is given a > new shape and character that tends to make it a bit less malgli and a > bit more lobykai. > > There are of course many cases where that solution doesn't work. =A0Most > often because the meaning spaces aren't contiguous enough, so our > polysemy alarms go off. =A0In these cases what almost always wins is > history. =A0If a word has been used in a particular way for long enough > or prominently enough then that meaning has dibs. =A0There are plenty of > other lujvo in the sea, go get your own. > > This criterion of history is necessary to keep old texts from being > disrupted, but it's also fairly unambiguous, which helps provide > clarity. =A0For instance, I don't especially like the word "lujyjvo". > As you may or may not know, it means lujvo that (like itself) have > matching consonants on the inside facing each other: "cucycau", > "samymri". =A0I think complex-lujvo is (A) a word that doesn't > particularly suggest that meaning and (B) a waste of a word that could > have a very useful meaning. =A0I would have put the meaning that's now > on "lujyjvo" somewhere else, like "cijyjvo" (wrinkled lujvo). =A0But > it's very easy to resolve this dispute. =A0You don't have to consider > whether I'm right at all (incidentally, I am). =A0The word had already > been used for years before I thought to dispute it. =A0The statute of > limitations was well up. =A0I lose. > > Another occasional result, though not an especially desirable one, is > that the battle rages on for a while. =A0In that case the word in > question tends to become scorched earth. =A0That's fine-- again, there > are plenty of words out there, there's billions of three part lujvo. > We simply avoid the area forevermore. =A0Same thing with all the false > starts and malgli, the "le'avla" and "dikyjvo" that litter our > lujvoland, we just leave them there as monuments. =A0Someday maybe it'll > be so crowded that we'll need to make use of this junk-- I've always > imagined le'avla as meaning the less usual situation of borrowing a > word from a language which then loses that word or dies, and perhaps a > dikyjvo could be a lujvo that appears regularly like for instance > seasonal ones the citsyjvo-- but today is not that day. =A0Today we live > with this history while we work at making more mistakes with what's > left. je'e mu'o mi'e tijlan --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. 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