From lojban+bncCIycn8S8DhDuqbzxBBoEDjLVbQ@googlegroups.com Tue Jul 26 12:26:52 2011 Received: from mail-yi0-f61.google.com ([209.85.218.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QlnHE-0004in-Gc; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 12:26:51 -0700 Received: by yie12 with SMTP id 12sf1056563yie.16 for ; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 12:26:42 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=M7B3NF5qAQPcKr0s+AcQj5cifZQQgeF0aRP6ZLsdsZ4=; b=X5TrfzePXK8NwoH4Se0HQR5q/EkiwoswNR0IOt8VUxPo8N0/m04EtDbeaygcc9gA05 yHtzLCLBv51bqtTTvLetWYh40qQBbK1K3apT46q1iYksU8L33q8L4gWbMEhlQZaWK9n6 BU8YPksQm3HNaathv4+ejoXqIWTPQYBh/wJ9U= Received: by 10.236.144.129 with SMTP id n1mr689351yhj.71.1311708398338; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 12:26:38 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.91.26.2 with SMTP id d2ls2421153agj.4.gmail; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 12:26:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.173.9 with SMTP id u9mr2260633yhl.117.1311708396423; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 12:26:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.173.9 with SMTP id u9mr2260632yhl.117.1311708396408; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 12:26:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-yi0-f42.google.com (mail-yi0-f42.google.com [209.85.218.42]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id d41si543950yhe.3.2011.07.26.12.26.36 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 26 Jul 2011 12:26:36 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.218.42 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.218.42; Received: by mail-yi0-f42.google.com with SMTP id 10so1039441yih.1 for ; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 12:26:36 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.68.62.70 with SMTP id w6mr7618392pbr.224.1311708396156; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 12:26:36 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.47.166 with HTTP; Tue, 26 Jul 2011 12:26:36 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <1310834449.33385.YahooMailRC@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <380A4C35-EF1C-4F52-ADBF-324B57D9DDEF@yahoo.com> Date: Tue, 26 Jul 2011 15:26:36 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Re: xu dai From: Michael Turniansky To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: mturniansky@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of mturniansky@gmail.com designates 209.85.218.42 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=mturniansky@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=bcaec544ecce00777304a8fde9b4 --bcaec544ecce00777304a8fde9b4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Still catching up on emails... On the two issues of this thread: 1) I am in concord with John Clifford (for a change). I think "xu dai" is close to meaningless, despite being grammatical. I quote from the glico jbovlaste entry for "dai": "*attitudinal* modifier: marks empathetic use of preceding *attitudinal* [emphasis added]" And xu is " discursive: true-false question." Not all UI are attitudinals (chapter 13 of CLL parts 1-10 refer to attitudinals, and, as part 11 says, "Now we proceed from the attitudinal indicators and their relatives to the other, semantically unrelated, categories of indicators" ) Xu is not an an attitudinal, and therefore the sentence "xu dai broda" has no more meaning than "dai broda" (after all, "dai" can grammaticaly appear by itself) (incidentally, CLL classifies xu as a "miscellaneous", not a "discursive", but in either case, not a "attitudinal") 2) "mi cadzu" does indeed mean "I walk" or "I am a walker". To be more precise, it means "walks(me,zo'e,zo'e)". There is no significant difference in meaning in this case between "mi cadzu" and "mi me lo cadzu", as lojban does not distinguish nouns and verbs. It describes functions and relationships. Where the "me lo" construction DOES become useful is in relation to things that can only be linked to sumti and not selbri, such as NOI and GOI: "la xank. me lo gerku po mi" "Hank is one of my dogs" (dog-belonging-to-me(Hank)) (since we can't directly attach NOI/GOI to selbri as I've always maintained would be a Good Thing (tm). --gejyspa On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 7:57 PM, John E. Clifford wrote: > A possible actually useful use of 'dai' away from home would be with the > FAhA 2s to indicate whose left or right, etc. you mean. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --bcaec544ecce00777304a8fde9b4 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

=A0 Still catching up on emails...=A0 On the two = issues of this thread:
=A0 1) I am in concord with John Clifford (for a change).=A0 I think &= quot;xu dai" is close to meaningless, despite being grammatical.=A0 I = quote from the glico jbovlaste entry for "dai": "*attitudina= l* modifier: marks empathetic use of preceding *attitudinal* [emphasis adde= d]" And xu is " discursive: true-false question."=A0 Not all= UI are attitudinals (chapter 13 of CLL parts 1-10 refer to attitudinals, a= nd, as part 11 says, "Now we proceed from the attitudinal indicators a= nd their relatives to the other, semantically unrelated, categories of indi= cators"=A0)=A0 Xu is not an an attitudinal, and therefore the sentence= "xu dai broda" has no more meaning than "dai broda" (a= fter all, "dai" can grammaticaly appear by itself) (incidentally,= CLL classifies xu as a "miscellaneous", not a "discursive&q= uot;, but in either case, not a "attitudinal")
=A0 2)=A0 "mi cadzu" does indeed mean = "I walk" or "I am a walker".=A0 To be more precise, it = means "walks(me,zo'e,zo'e)".=A0 There is no significant d= ifference in meaning in this case between "mi cadzu" and "mi= me lo=A0cadzu", as lojban does not distinguish nouns and verbs.=A0 It= describes functions and relationships. Where the "me lo" constru= ction DOES become useful is in relation to things that can only be linked t= o sumti and not selbri, such as NOI and GOI: "la xank. me lo gerku po = mi"=A0 "Hank is one of my dogs"=A0(dog-belonging-to-me(Hank)= )=A0(since we can't directly attach=A0NOI/GOI to selbri as I've alw= ays maintained would be a Good Thing (tm).
=A0
=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0= --gejyspa
=A0
=A0
On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 7:57 PM, John E. Cliffor= d <kali9putra@= yahoo.com> wrote:
A possible actually useful use o= f 'dai' away from home would be with the FAhA 2s to indicate whose = left or right, etc. you mean.

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