From lojban+bncCMqBsa7nERDiksXxBBoEkkBidg@googlegroups.com Thu Jul 28 04:35:13 2011 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QmOrt-0001Io-EO; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 04:35:12 -0700 Received: by fxd2 with SMTP id 2sf2127556fxd.16 for ; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 04:35:02 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=7F1aisOaKkr3FtGIXp6qb1rn1rMmIWh9ACeVK7KdSzE=; b=ajXPgT0Ri3YoSjVL5IiY8NJw+18pD/GwUQl45EPeO2KH/q8Ihs26v4eSKY2SaGTZAt 8giwwBOwLlH2w29Lc3rUHPgZFqJLx9BlFhm2y2xpq3Jk87WEhX0fd+MNh8JrtHIB7H8S iKAWQ0dJtKpDRhm4tMtbb/ebQqnQ0CMZwSZPw= Received: by 10.223.17.154 with SMTP id s26mr343839faa.44.1311852898525; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 04:34:58 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.204.11.11 with SMTP id r11ls1436334bkr.1.gmail; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 04:34:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.41.80 with SMTP id n16mr120164bke.23.1311852897326; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 04:34:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.204.41.80 with SMTP id n16mr120163bke.23.1311852897294; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 04:34:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-fx0-f52.google.com (mail-fx0-f52.google.com [209.85.161.52]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id k16si400128fah.0.2011.07.28.04.34.57 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 28 Jul 2011 04:34:57 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of oges007@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.52 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.161.52; Received: by fxd18 with SMTP id 18so1241235fxd.25 for ; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 04:34:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.223.144.136 with SMTP id z8mr1251933fau.31.1311852897120; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 04:34:57 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.223.74.4 with HTTP; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 04:34:26 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <201107191408.50207.phma@phma.optus.nu> <1311780839.58357.YahooMailRC@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: Ross Ogilvie Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 21:34:26 +1000 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Gerunds, infinitives and other technicalities To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: oges007@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of oges007@gmail.com designates 209.85.161.52 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=oges007@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=0023545bde24ee315204a91f8d6b --0023545bde24ee315204a91f8d6b Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 There is a member of NU that already does what you suggest below, namely su'u mu'o mi'e ros On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 7:16 PM, tijlan wrote: > ta'o > > What exactly is an "event"? Are "asking the question" and "finding not > the answer" an "event"? Different jbopre might come up with different > NU: > > lo nu preti > lo pu'u preti > lo du'u preti > lo ka preti > ... > > I would like to think of "nu" as a generic bridi subordinator, rather > than a so-called "abstractor" that extracts specifically the so-called > "event" element of something represented by a bridi. lo danfu, lo se > facki, lo se jinvi, lo se ckaji, etc., conventionally represented by a > non-"nu", could be as much of a nu. > > being / to be a good parent > lo ka ce'u xamgu rirni > --> lo nu ce'u xamgu rirni > > that you are a good parent > lo du'u do xamgu rirni > --> lo nu do xamgu rirni > > Gerunds and infinitives, which may be said to be natlang ways of > creating a sumti out of a bridi subordination simultaneously, often > neither specify nor give a clue about the type of its "abstraction". > Also, such types in Lojban seem mostly inferable from the meaning / > definition of the selbri or other contexts. If you said "ko'a ckaji lo > nu ce'u xamgu rirni", using "nu" as a generic bridi subordinator > instead of "ka", I would still understand what the x2 is about, > insofar as I would know the relationship "ckaji" represents between x1 > and x2. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=en. --0023545bde24ee315204a91f8d6b Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable There is a member of NU that already does what you suggest below, namely su= 'u

mu'o mi'e ros

On Th= u, Jul 28, 2011 at 7:16 PM, tijlan <jbotijlan@gmail.com> wrote:
ta'o

What exactly is an "event"? Are "asking the question" a= nd "finding not
the answer" an "event"? Different jbopre might come up with = different
NU:

=A0lo nu preti
=A0lo pu'u preti
=A0lo du'u preti
=A0lo ka preti
=A0...

I would like to think of "nu" as a generic bridi subordinator, ra= ther
than a so-called "abstractor" that extracts specifically the so-c= alled
"event" element of something represented by a bridi. lo danfu, lo= se
facki, lo se jinvi, lo se ckaji, etc., conventionally represented by a
non-"nu", could be as much of a nu.

=A0being / to be a good parent
=A0lo ka ce'u xamgu rirni
=A0--> lo nu ce'u xamgu rirni

=A0that you are a good parent
=A0lo du'u do xamgu rirni
=A0--> lo nu do xamgu rirni

Gerunds and infinitives, which may be said to be natlang ways of
creating a sumti out of a bridi subordination simultaneously, often
neither specify nor give a clue about the type of its "abstraction&quo= t;.
Also, such types in Lojban seem mostly inferable from the meaning /
definition of the selbri or other contexts. If you said "ko'a ckaj= i lo
nu ce'u xamgu rirni", using "nu" as a generic bridi subo= rdinator
instead of "ka", I would still understand what the x2 is about, insofar as I would know the relationship "ckaji" represents betwe= en x1
and x2.

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