From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBDSs8bxBBoEBM74kQ@googlegroups.com Thu Jul 28 10:18:25 2011 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QmUE1-00089l-CB; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 10:18:25 -0700 Received: by fxd2 with SMTP id 2sf3096278fxd.16 for ; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 10:18:14 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=Aqav0gBEOvj/4Dsc+IP7iSrztkq0EQsGKYoI/YMvsKc=; b=McakMNWVeUPBz3qIwutIdL7GZtqw+Z9p2F82AGKZ8bDzi3xcBLKkHvLGFpq9UTmy6K Iq3n+q9x1v5KkaQFR8rceNfEaMm+ICvi2UZktc94gnLGpxX3ac0Dxqi9mITs2V1AXnwo t0mQLFEyrCS1De4P5ugJTGyvppMgMTyvrCQPk= Received: by 10.223.62.7 with SMTP id v7mr261273fah.43.1311873490466; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 10:18:10 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.227.149.75 with SMTP id s11ls4591323wbv.2.gmail; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 10:18:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.23.196 with SMTP id s4mr29130wbb.10.1311873489450; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 10:18:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.23.196 with SMTP id s4mr29129wbb.10.1311873489407; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 10:18:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wy0-f182.google.com (mail-wy0-f182.google.com [74.125.82.182]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id fh14si2142236wbb.0.2011.07.28.10.18.09 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 28 Jul 2011 10:18:09 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.182 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.182; Received: by wyg24 with SMTP id 24so22426wyg.41 for ; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 10:18:09 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.182.74 with SMTP id cb10mr336313wbb.48.1311873489121; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 10:18:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.47.135 with HTTP; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 10:17:48 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: <201107191408.50207.phma@phma.optus.nu> <1311780839.58357.YahooMailRC@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1311870454.18589.YahooMailRC@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: Luke Bergen Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 13:17:48 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Gerunds, infinitives and other technicalities To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.182 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf3001b85d4f31b204a92459df --20cf3001b85d4f31b204a92459df Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable ^ tldr; speaking with infinite precision requires an infinitely verbose language > Thus, I guess the best thing to do is to create a neologism to > encapsulate the very special meaning of this (somewhat ?) "new" > notion... What "new" notion? Maybe I'm just being stupid but it sounds like you're using a lot of words to talk about {lo smuni be lo selfri} or maybe {lo sisku be lo smuni be lo selfri}. Although in this situation I think that was a pretty poor use of {sisku}. side question: In forming this reply I noticed that I have no idea how to say "I looked for the ball". {facki} is about discovering that a {du'u} is true and {sisku} is looking for a property amongst a set... whatever the hell that's supposed to mean. On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 12:38 PM, Escape Landsome wrote= : > The point is no concept is ontologically pure (and this should be a > problem, even in Lojban). Assume we are talking of "reading a book", > for instance. Reading a book would be : > 1=B0) the process of collect the information of adjacent letters and > words in lines of the pages of the book, > 2=B0) the same process, but with the correlative cognitive process of > assigning a meaning (i.e. mental images) to what is pronounced > 3=B0) the overall and more global process of entering deeply in the > author thought, in his world, and capture subtleties > 4=B0) the same process acted on a whole life, so as to change one's > philosophy (as when you say "I am a Gospel reader") > > There IS some connection between all four meanings, in the sense that > 4=B0) needs 3=B0) which is necessary for 2=B0) to be carried, which in tu= rn > is necessary for 1=B0) > Or, you could say, 1=B0) is a substratum of 2=B0), which is one of 3=B0), > which is one of 4=B0), and there is pragmatic elaboration from 1=B0) to > 4=B0) > > I guess that a PERFECT lojbanist would create four sumti for each > meaning... > > But the real problem is that these meanings lie in a CONTINUUM. So, > in fact, one would ideally need an infinite number of sumti, if one > would render each meaning subtlety... > > Here, I have a similar problem : what I speak about is a quest about > the meaning of life or the like (you got it), but it is ALSO a > specific question, the question that carries within itself this quest. > This notion is a lojbanic monster, because it should be two broda at > the same time, if we were to use existing broda > > Thus, I guess the best thing to do is to create a neologism to > encapsulate the very special meaning of this (somewhat ?) "new" > notion... > > Or, perhaps, you have a better idea ? I'm ready for all suggestions > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --20cf3001b85d4f31b204a92459df Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
^
tldr; speaking with infinite precision requires an infinitely v= erbose language

> Thus, I guess the = best thing to do is to create a neologism to
> encapsulate the very s= pecial meaning of this (somewhat ?) "new"
> notion...

What "new" notion? =A0May= be I'm just being stupid but it sounds like you're using a lot of w= ords to talk about {lo smuni be lo selfri} or maybe {lo sisku be lo smuni b= e lo selfri}. =A0Although in this situation I think that was a pretty poor = use of {sisku}.

side question: =A0In forming this reply I noticed that = I have no idea how to say "I looked for the ball". =A0{facki} is = about discovering that a {du'u} is true and {sisku} is looking for a pr= operty amongst a set... whatever the hell that's supposed to mean.

On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 12:38 PM, Escap= e Landsome <esca= aape@gmail.com> wrote:
The point is no concept is ontologically pure (and this should be a
problem, even in Lojban). =A0 Assume we are talking of "reading a book= ",
for instance. =A0 Reading a book would be :
1=B0) the process of collect the information of adjacent letters and
words in lines of the pages of the book,
2=B0) the same process, but with the correlative cognitive process of
assigning a meaning (i.e. mental images) to what is pronounced
3=B0) the overall and more global process of entering deeply in the
author thought, in his world, and capture subtleties
4=B0) the same process acted on a whole life, so as to change one's
philosophy (as when you say "I am a Gospel reader")

There IS some connection between all four meanings, in the sense that
4=B0) needs 3=B0) which is necessary for 2=B0) to be carried, which in turn=
is necessary for 1=B0)
Or, you could say, 1=B0) is a substratum of 2=B0), which is one of 3=B0), which is one of 4=B0), and there is pragmatic elaboration from 1=B0) to
4=B0)

I guess that a PERFECT lojbanist would create four sumti for each meaning..= .

But the real problem is that these meanings lie in a CONTINUUM. =A0 So,
in fact, one would ideally need an infinite number of sumti, if one
would render each meaning subtlety...

Here, I have a similar problem : what I speak about is a quest about
the meaning of life or the like (you got it), but it is ALSO a
specific question, the question that carries within itself this quest.
This notion is a lojbanic monster, because it should be two broda at
the same time, if we were to use existing broda

Thus, I guess the best thing to do is to create a neologism to
encapsulate the very special meaning of this (somewhat ?) "new" notion...

Or, perhaps, you have a better idea ? =A0 I'm ready for all suggestions=

--
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To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com.
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojba= n?hl=3Den.


--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group.
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To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com.
For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.
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