From lojban+bncCIywt_XDCRDamMfxBBoEo6msFg@googlegroups.com Thu Jul 28 13:54:01 2011 Received: from mail-gx0-f189.google.com ([209.85.161.189]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QmXaf-0002wM-5M; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 13:54:00 -0700 Received: by gxk3 with SMTP id 3sf4140919gxk.16 for ; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 13:53:50 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:x-yahoo-newman-property:x-yahoo-newman-id :x-ymail-osg:x-mailer:references:message-id:date:from:subject:to :in-reply-to:mime-version:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=GRk/VVZhtKjodNuBuPyK9KvdJSX1da+OImwqVrZ21tk=; b=nAvfBO3X+GK/Mx29uQsCygpFnJW+8/rTgJ83YLkNPz7tdcbLjFjM0mEmr9dUI9Gpbe lT9mjEnf78O2L85VxyNSxQvqXeulBAuNKqaI2xNvpSQJig5Lejb9Ajnv4UXmVkf1Qnlk pyHq3Mhe8ZfR6QTQjh2s5ATHiaAJhzRJild+g= Received: by 10.90.230.17 with SMTP id c17mr100327agh.45.1311886426782; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 13:53:46 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.91.160.20 with SMTP id m20ls5325272ago.0.gmail; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 13:53:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.182.201 with SMTP id o49mr200046yhm.144.1311886425507; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 13:53:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.236.182.201 with SMTP id o49mr200045yhm.144.1311886425497; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 13:53:45 -0700 (PDT) Received: from nm17.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com (nm17.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com [66.94.237.218]) by gmr-mx.google.com with SMTP id c22si1107904yhe.0.2011.07.28.13.53.45; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 13:53:45 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.218 as permitted sender) client-ip=66.94.237.218; Received: from [66.94.237.199] by nm17.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Jul 2011 20:53:45 -0000 Received: from [66.94.237.108] by tm10.access.bullet.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Jul 2011 20:53:45 -0000 Received: from [127.0.0.1] by omp1013.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com with NNFMP; 28 Jul 2011 20:53:45 -0000 X-Yahoo-Newman-Property: ymail-3 X-Yahoo-Newman-Id: 183985.60054.bm@omp1013.access.mail.mud.yahoo.com Received: (qmail 23183 invoked by uid 60001); 28 Jul 2011 20:53:45 -0000 X-YMail-OSG: BlY9ELEVM1n86.zcCw_GWpT0PlszvoKhoBvXftt3S68DY4M QdF1Iv1mfPhcYxV0y5bgzBAn3WYQXc_lymXJv9uHl9amQFJoo0BPiKyxukKK z.T0QSyHJIW0T7ChxOu40ea67mXkhUzvavJCVAyaPVGjrC8NkHXxRGCah5iQ qRgndQiJ.oW_AumjuL2y1rwGBxtTvenoUd6fulfoeDYQr1moOvtUZ4bO9ZUO Qy_y8rYNgp3BMT2szGTLuENEmysLa6K8ybcWIRnAnqdmbuuePj5S.dzLhGqA a6_od7rFQfytrXUO9Qn15fcFpy0p0d7XYivOMvKp_p_v2R7rMF5E9zodaaOu JWOI0nAlAWMF8N_zsE2D3GhcoxL5.dDoOjDBREt3orDmvzwR.x0.WiIag_mV okBA3titeLls8xyMz4GMTWdEvJ6BKWIHSB9dqg0iOSi.EEbefCAeLIrk1i8D nC2o3df9Vfzq4bOJ1UjMR69v2qJ4tqFfyYqOfjp5biMQ- Received: from [99.92.108.41] by web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 13:53:44 PDT X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/574 YahooMailWebService/0.8.112.310352 References: <201107191408.50207.phma@phma.optus.nu> <1311780839.58357.YahooMailRC@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1311870454.18589.YahooMailRC@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1311886424.23009.YahooMailRC@web81305.mail.mud.yahoo.com> Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 13:53:44 -0700 (PDT) From: John E Clifford Subject: Re: [lojban] Gerunds, infinitives and other technicalities To: lojban@googlegroups.com In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: kali9putra@yahoo.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: best guess record for domain of kali9putra@yahoo.com designates 66.94.237.218 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=kali9putra@yahoo.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@yahoo.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable [sigh!] "no concept is ontologically pure" seems to be a denial of classic= al=20 realism, the view that ideas are eternal independently existing entities a = la=20 Plato, so I suppose you mean they are either ideas in individual heads or m= erely=20 forms of words (mouth farts). None of which is a problem for Lojban. I sus= pect=20 that what you meant was that all words are ambiguous, which is also not a= =20 problem for Lojban, since it is an inherent part of every language. It is = also=20 non-controversial and has no noticeable relation to what went before. The= =20 alternate suggestion is that almost every event (achievements being a body = of=20 possible exceptions) can be broken down into further events and that the ev= ent=20 types change at the different levels of analysis. Also non-controversial a= nd=20 unrelated to what went before. As for reading a book, I suppose that this = is=20 one possible analysis of one sense of reading a book, but it does not seem = to be=20 four different sense of "reading a book": the first would hardly count at a= ll,=20 the third and fourth go beyond reading into something different. But maybe= we=20 can allow these to be cases of reading as well, the boundaries are pretty= =20 relative. But what then is the point. That we need four words? I don't s= ee=20 why; at most we might want some adverb thrown in. A perfect Lojbanist is= =20 presumably a totally literate nativve speaker and he would almost certainly= not=20 create four predicates for these four notion -- unless he was deep into rea= ding=20 theory and needed to create a jargon. (Incidentally, he would create sumti= ,=20 which are noun phrases, he would create predicates, if anything). It is no= t at=20 all clear in what sense there is a continuum here, certainly not one which= =20 encompasses the four stages suggested as arbitrary stops along the way -- w= hat=20 would the intermediate steps be, that we would care enough about to mention= ? =20 Someone has already noted the price of precision, which no one is willing t= o=20 pay. The rest is argle-bargle. Questions don't embody or contain or sum up (in = any=20 serious sense) quests. I suppose the quest for the meaning of life could b= e=20 summed up in the question "What is the meaning of life?" but that leaves ou= t=20 quite a bit -- the presuppositions, for one major thing. What two predicat= es?=20 sentences? would it be and why are they necessary and what is the problem w= ith=20 having two predicates hold of (or two sentences be about) the same thing,= =20 whatever it may be? Suggestion: figure out what you really want to say, figure how to say it re= ally=20 clearly, figure out then whether it is worth saying, and then try again. =20 ----- Original Message ---- From: Escape Landsome To: lojban@googlegroups.com Sent: Thu, July 28, 2011 11:38:46 AM Subject: Re: [lojban] Gerunds, infinitives and other technicalities The point is no concept is ontologically pure (and this should be a problem, even in Lojban). Assume we are talking of "reading a book", for instance. Reading a book would be : 1=B0) the process of collect the information of adjacent letters and words in lines of the pages of the book, 2=B0) the same process, but with the correlative cognitive process of assigning a meaning (i.e. mental images) to what is pronounced 3=B0) the overall and more global process of entering deeply in the author thought, in his world, and capture subtleties 4=B0) the same process acted on a whole life, so as to change one's philosophy (as when you say "I am a Gospel reader") There IS some connection between all four meanings, in the sense that 4=B0) needs 3=B0) which is necessary for 2=B0) to be carried, which in turn is necessary for 1=B0) Or, you could say, 1=B0) is a substratum of 2=B0), which is one of 3=B0), which is one of 4=B0), and there is pragmatic elaboration from 1=B0) to 4=B0) I guess that a PERFECT lojbanist would create four sumti for each meaning..= . But the real problem is that these meanings lie in a CONTINUUM. So, in fact, one would ideally need an infinite number of sumti, if one would render each meaning subtlety... Here, I have a similar problem : what I speak about is a quest about the meaning of life or the like (you got it), but it is ALSO a specific question, the question that carries within itself this quest. This notion is a lojbanic monster, because it should be two broda at the same time, if we were to use existing broda Thus, I guess the best thing to do is to create a neologism to encapsulate the very special meaning of this (somewhat ?) "new" notion... Or, perhaps, you have a better idea ? I'm ready for all suggestions --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups= =20 "lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to=20 lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at=20 http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den.