From lojban+bncCOjSjrXVGBCEoMfxBBoEJ__pOQ@googlegroups.com Thu Jul 28 14:09:40 2011 Received: from mail-fx0-f61.google.com ([209.85.161.61]) by chain.digitalkingdom.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1QmXpn-0006o9-K2; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 14:09:39 -0700 Received: by fxd2 with SMTP id 2sf3658985fxd.16 for ; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 14:09:28 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=beta; h=x-beenthere:received-spf:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from :date:message-id:subject:to:x-original-sender :x-original-authentication-results:reply-to:precedence:mailing-list :list-id:x-google-group-id:list-post:list-help:list-archive:sender :list-subscribe:list-unsubscribe:content-type; bh=eYM2RR8tf7X85wJjEbbEsdRSL0YWgQg6JLaN7qec1Wo=; b=NFLKkxRe+sJWAYz11rqB9rd6Ig+x5RbgMeWdagQxEoZkCtOQzVTvsOqe6lSlDVTmSF fuIKgw38QMzpBaogyudN0mAUr7GbCL4qKk0bb8F02N7ZI3C8QmMayT2mTj9BZOFtADAn hJjihoIldAg73BmEy8QTSzcnJCAk7I2astjV8= Received: by 10.223.63.212 with SMTP id c20mr346217fai.14.1311887364728; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 14:09:24 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: lojban@googlegroups.com Received: by 10.216.88.140 with SMTP id a12ls904664wef.2.gmail; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 14:09:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.10.75 with SMTP id o11mr52483wbo.2.1311887363534; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 14:09:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.10.75 with SMTP id o11mr52482wbo.2.1311887363487; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 14:09:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from mail-wy0-f179.google.com (mail-wy0-f179.google.com [74.125.82.179]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id fh14si2465487wbb.0.2011.07.28.14.09.23 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 28 Jul 2011 14:09:23 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.179 as permitted sender) client-ip=74.125.82.179; Received: by wyh21 with SMTP id 21so110097wyh.38 for ; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 14:09:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.227.195.138 with SMTP id ec10mr615082wbb.87.1311887363089; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 14:09:23 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.216.47.135 with HTTP; Thu, 28 Jul 2011 14:09:03 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <1311886768.32022.YahooMailRC@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> References: <201107191408.50207.phma@phma.optus.nu> <1311780839.58357.YahooMailRC@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1311870454.18589.YahooMailRC@web81304.mail.mud.yahoo.com> <1311886768.32022.YahooMailRC@web81301.mail.mud.yahoo.com> From: Luke Bergen Date: Thu, 28 Jul 2011 17:09:03 -0400 Message-ID: Subject: Re: [lojban] Gerunds, infinitives and other technicalities To: lojban@googlegroups.com X-Original-Sender: lukeabergen@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lukeabergen@gmail.com designates 74.125.82.179 as permitted sender) smtp.mail=lukeabergen@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com Reply-To: lojban@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list lojban@googlegroups.com; contact lojban+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 1004133512417 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: Sender: lojban@googlegroups.com List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=20cf300259ca43257604a9279450 --20cf300259ca43257604a9279450 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I assume you meant "lifri". Yeah, I still struggle with when to use lifri and when to use jmive On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 4:59 PM, John E Clifford wrot= e: > Any bets that 'lifre' is not what he means by "Life"? > > ------------------------------ > *From:* Luke Bergen > *To:* lojban@googlegroups.com > *Sent:* Thu, July 28, 2011 12:17:48 PM > > *Subject:* Re: [lojban] Gerunds, infinitives and other technicalities > > ^ > tldr; speaking with infinite precision requires an infinitely verbose > language > > > Thus, I guess the best thing to do is to create a neologism to > > encapsulate the very special meaning of this (somewhat ?) "new" > > notion... > > What "new" notion? Maybe I'm just being stupid but it sounds like you're > using a lot of words to talk about {lo smuni be lo selfri} or maybe {lo > sisku be lo smuni be lo selfri}. Although in this situation I think that > was a pretty poor use of {sisku}. > > side question: In forming this reply I noticed that I have no idea how t= o > say "I looked for the ball". {facki} is about discovering that a {du'u} = is > true and {sisku} is looking for a property amongst a set... whatever the > hell that's supposed to mean. > > On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 12:38 PM, Escape Landsome wro= te: > >> The point is no concept is ontologically pure (and this should be a >> problem, even in Lojban). Assume we are talking of "reading a book", >> for instance. Reading a book would be : >> 1=B0) the process of collect the information of adjacent letters and >> words in lines of the pages of the book, >> 2=B0) the same process, but with the correlative cognitive process of >> assigning a meaning (i.e. mental images) to what is pronounced >> 3=B0) the overall and more global process of entering deeply in the >> author thought, in his world, and capture subtleties >> 4=B0) the same process acted on a whole life, so as to change one's >> philosophy (as when you say "I am a Gospel reader") >> >> There IS some connection between all four meanings, in the sense that >> 4=B0) needs 3=B0) which is necessary for 2=B0) to be carried, which in t= urn >> is necessary for 1=B0) >> Or, you could say, 1=B0) is a substratum of 2=B0), which is one of 3=B0)= , >> which is one of 4=B0), and there is pragmatic elaboration from 1=B0) to >> 4=B0) >> >> I guess that a PERFECT lojbanist would create four sumti for each >> meaning... >> >> But the real problem is that these meanings lie in a CONTINUUM. So, >> in fact, one would ideally need an infinite number of sumti, if one >> would render each meaning subtlety... >> >> Here, I have a similar problem : what I speak about is a quest about >> the meaning of life or the like (you got it), but it is ALSO a >> specific question, the question that carries within itself this quest. >> This notion is a lojbanic monster, because it should be two broda at >> the same time, if we were to use existing broda >> >> Thus, I guess the best thing to do is to create a neologism to >> encapsulate the very special meaning of this (somewhat ?) "new" >> notion... >> >> Or, perhaps, you have a better idea ? I'm ready for all suggestions >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "lojban" group. >> To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. >> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to >> lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> For more options, visit this group at >> http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. >> >> > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "lojban" group. > To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > lojban+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/lojban?hl=3Den. > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= lojban" group. To post to this group, send email to lojban@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to lojban+unsubscribe@googlegrou= ps.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/lojban= ?hl=3Den. --20cf300259ca43257604a9279450 Content-Type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I assume you meant "lifri". =A0Yeah, I still struggle with when t= o use lifri and when to use jmive

On Thu,= Jul 28, 2011 at 4:59 PM, John E Clifford <kali9putra@yahoo.com> wrote:
Any bets that 'lifre'= is not what he means by "Life"?

= From: Luke Bergen <lukeabergen@gmail.com>
To: lojban@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, July 28, 2011 12:17:48 P= M

Subject: Re: [lojban] Ge= runds, infinitives and other technicalities

^
tldr; speaking with infinite precision requires an infinitely v= erbose language

> Thus, I guess the best thing to do is to = create a neologism to
> encapsulate the very special meaning of this = (somewhat ?) "new"
> notion...

What "new" notion? =A0May= be I'm just being stupid but it sounds like you're using a lot of w= ords to talk about {lo smuni be lo selfri} or maybe {lo sisku be lo smuni b= e lo selfri}. =A0Although in this situation I think that was a pretty poor = use of {sisku}.

side question: =A0In forming this reply I noticed that = I have no idea how to say "I looked for the ball". =A0{facki} is = about discovering that a {du'u} is true and {sisku} is looking for a pr= operty amongst a set... whatever the hell that's supposed to mean.

On Thu, Jul 28, 2011 at 12:38 PM, Escap= e Landsome <escaaape@gmail.com> wrote:
=
The point is no concept is ontologically pure (and this should be a
problem, even in Lojban). =A0 Assume we are talking of "reading a book= ",
for instance. =A0 Reading a book would be :
1=B0) the process of collect the information of adjacent letters and
words in lines of the pages of the book,
2=B0) the same process, but with the correlative cognitive process of
assigning a meaning (i.e. mental images) to what is pronounced
3=B0) the overall and more global process of entering deeply in the
author thought, in his world, and capture subtleties
4=B0) the same process acted on a whole life, so as to change one's
philosophy (as when you say "I am a Gospel reader")

There IS some connection between all four meanings, in the sense that
4=B0) needs 3=B0) which is necessary for 2=B0) to be carried, which in turn=
is necessary for 1=B0)
Or, you could say, 1=B0) is a substratum of 2=B0), which is one of 3=B0), which is one of 4=B0), and there is pragmatic elaboration from 1=B0) to
4=B0)

I guess that a PERFECT lojbanist would create four sumti for each meaning..= .

But the real problem is that these meanings lie in a CONTINUUM. =A0 So,
in fact, one would ideally need an infinite number of sumti, if one
would render each meaning subtlety...

Here, I have a similar problem : what I speak about is a quest about
the meaning of life or the like (you got it), but it is ALSO a
specific question, the question that carries within itself this quest.
This notion is a lojbanic monster, because it should be two broda at
the same time, if we were to use existing broda

Thus, I guess the best thing to do is to create a neologism to
encapsulate the very special meaning of this (somewhat ?) "new" notion...

Or, perhaps, you have a better idea ? =A0 I'm ready for all suggestions=

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